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Harriet married Arthur Albert Savage 17/2/1909. She was a widow with the surname of Hanns. Her father was John Carroll, a Mariner

My problem is that 1) I cannot find any record of her marriage to Mr Hanns,
and 2) I cannot identify her parents John 1861 Peckham and his wife Harriett 1859 St Pancras

Any ideas???

Thanks, Gerry

For our reference :

Harriet Carroll
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Harriet Carroll
Gender: Female
Age: 9
Relationship: Daughter
Birth Year: 1882
Father: John Carroll
Mother: Harriet Carroll
Birth Place: St Pancras, London, England
Civil Parish: St Paul Deptford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Pauls
Residence Place: Deptford, St Paul Deptford, London, England
Registration district: Greenwich
Sub registration district: St Paul Deptford
ED, Institution or Vessel: 4
Neighbors:
Piece: 494
Folio: 115
Household Members:
Name Age
John Carroll 30 - Peckham, general labourer
Harriet Carroll 32 - St Pancras
Harriet Carroll 9

Was Arthur a soldier ??

Arthur Albert Savage
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Arthur Albert Savage
Age in 1911: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1881
Birth Place: London, England
Search Photos:
County/Island: Military
Country: England
Military Unit: 12th R Lancers
Registration District Number: 641
ED, institution, or vessel: Mauritius and South Africa
Piece: 34976

? If ages were out? Gives POB as Ireland for Jophn so maybe married there?

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
26, Offord Road, Islington, London & Middlesex, England


John Carroll Head Married Male 45 1856 Coachman Ireland
Harriett Carroll Wife Married Female 43 1858 - Islington, Middlesex, England

is this harriet in 1901

arriett Carroll
England and Wales Census, 1901





Name:
Harriett Carroll
Event Type:
Census
Event Date:
31 Mar 1901
Event Place:
Islington, London, England, United Kingdom
County:
London, Middlesex
Civil Parish:
Islington
Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Barnabas
Sub-District:
Highbury
Registration District:
Islington
Gender:
Female
Age:
18
Occupation:
METALLIC CAPSULE MAKER
Relationship to Head of Household:
Daughter
Birth Year (Estimated):
1883
Birthplace:
Islington, London
Schedule Type:
250
Page Number:
47
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
William Carroll Head Male 42 Lancaster, Lancashire
Harriet Carroll Wife Female 40 Islington, London
Rose Carroll Daughter Female 21 Islington, London
Harriett Carroll Daughter Female 18 Islington, London

1939 confirms Harriet's birth date

Name: Harriett Savage
Gender: Female
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 12 Apr 1881
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 1 School Cott
Residence Place: Newhaven, Sussex, England
Occupation: ?? Worker
Schedule Number: 160
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: EJKA
Registration district: 77/1
Inferred Spouse: Arthur Savage
Household Members:
Name
Arthur Savage
Harriett Savage

As there is no birth to match 1891 census, perhaps she was illegitimate? And mother married Carroll at a later date?

FARMER, HARRIET -
GRO Reference: 1881 J Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 112

Just a thought............................

Harriett Carroll
in the London, England, School Admissions and Discharges, 1840-1911

Name: Harriett Carroll
Gender: Female
Age: 8
Birth Date: 12 Apr 1881
Admission Date: 6 Feb 1890
School: Frankham Street School
Father: John Carroll
Notes: Frankham Street School (0341) opened in 1876. Originally named Regent Street School then renamed Frankham Street School. Became Tidemill Primary School in 1951. Closed or reorganised in 198-

Interesting............maybe? Or coincidence?

1911

2 Old School Cottages Denton, Denton, Sussex, England
Arthur Savage Head Married Male 30 1881 Farm Labourer General West Ham Essex
Harriett Savage Wife Married Female 29 1882 - St Pancras London
Harriett Savage Daughter - Female 1 1910 - Brighton
Rose Mitchell Stepdaughter - Female 11 1900 - Dorkin Surrey
Lillie Mitchell Stepdaughter - Female 9 1902 - Battle Sussex
Bert Mitchell Stepson - Male 6 1905 - Battle Sussex
Mary Mitchell Stepdaughter - Female 4 1907 - Newhaven Sussex

MITCHELL, MARY ELIZABETH CARROLL
GRO Reference: 1907 J Quarter in NEWHAVEN Volume 02B Page 179

SAVAGE, HARRIETT HILDA FARMER ***********************************
GRO Reference: 1910 J Quarter in BRIGHTON Volume 02B Page 178

Is this them in 1911?

1911 Census For England & Wales

2 Old School Cottages Denton, Denton, Sussex, England

Arthur Savage Head Married Male 30 1881 Farm Labourer General West Ham Essex
Harriett Savage Wife Married Female 29 1882 - St Pancras London
Harriett Savage Daughter - Female 1 1910 - Brighton
Rose Mitchell Stepdaughter - Female 11 1900 - Dorkin Surrey
Lillie Mitchell Stepdaughter - Female 9 1902 - Battle Sussex
Bert Mitchell Stepson - Male 6 1905 - Battle Sussex
Mary Mitchell Stepdaughter - Female 4 1907 - Newhaven Sussex

Oh snap Erika! Sorry I didn't know you'd already posted this.

No problem. Interesting family!

Lillie:

CARROLL, LILY -
GRO Reference: 1902 D Quarter in BATTLE Volume 02B Page 45


Bert:

CARROLL, GEORGE HERBERT -
GRO Reference: 1905 M Quarter in BATTLE Volume 02B Page 50


Not Dorking, but maybe ???

CARROLL, ROSE -
GRO Reference: 1901 D Quarter in TICEHURST Volume 02B Page 109

Thank your for your input. No mention of Hanns = Harriet unfortunately

Sorry for the delay in responding but I had a 2 day spell of vertigo - not much fun!!

So is it the right woman - or not?

Been doing some interesting research into "Harriett - 1881" -- it looks as if she was
born Harriett Farmer 13th April 1881 St Pancras Workhouse baptised May 1881 born to Harriett Farmer which may well account for the mother being Farmer on the Harriett Savage birth 1910

A copy of the Birth of Mary Elizabeth Mitchell J Q 1907 should give you fathers name mother is Carroll

If you look at the 1939 index for Arthur and Harriett Savage next door but one is a William and Rose Baker -- Roses birth date 1st Nov 1899 made me think of the 1911 census Rose Mitchell 1899 Surrey on further investigation Rose married as Rose Hann to William Baker MQ 1920 Eastbourne perhaps the answer to why Harriett married as a widow Hann in 1909 there again a copy of Roses Marriage may give you Mr Hann

Mother Harriett Farmer born 1857 St Pancras parents George 1815- and Hannah [Dixon] 1815 Farmer these married Dec Q 1853 another daughter Elizabeth Ann MQ 1960

Mavis

oops Elizabeth Ann Farmer 1860 not 1960

Mavis

The 1939 for Rose Baker shows her name as Rosa Ana Baker, on Ancestry's transcription.
On the image it could just be Rose A Baker, although there's a squiggle after the A.

Also with them are four closed records (on Ancestry - FMP might be more up to date) and then an Arthur Baker, xx April 1939. (Date removed in case he's still living.)

??

Births Jun 1939 (>99%)
Baker Arthur S Farmer Worthing 2b 511



Rosa Ana Baker
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Rosa Ana Baker
Gender: Female
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 1 Nov 1899
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 3 School Cott
Residence Place: Newhaven, Sussex, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Schedule Number: 162
Sub Schedule Number: 2
Enumeration District: EJKA
Registration district: 77/1
Inferred Spouse: William Baker
Household Members:
Name
William Baker - 28 Oct 1889
Rosa Ana Baker
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
This record is officially closed.
Arthur Baker


I think the 1901 birth of Rose Carroll in Ticehurst, already posted, is the correct one, and that the year 1899 shown in 1939 is a mistake.


??

Rose Baker
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Rose Baker
Death Age: 50
Birth Date: abt 1901
Registration Date: Jan 1951
[Feb 1951]
[Mar 1951]
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration district: Lewes
Inferred County: Sussex
Volume: 5h
Page: 612


William George Baker
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: William George Baker
Death Age: 87
Birth Date: 28 Oct 1889
Registration Date: Oct 1976
[Nov 1976]
[Dec 1976]
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: Lewes
Inferred County: East Sussex
Volume: 18
Page: 1270




If Harriet was with a Mr Hann, it seems to have been between 1905 (birth of son Bert (George Herbert) Carroll), and 1909, and was presumably in Sussex.
Unfortunately, it therefore doesn't show up on any census, and they don't appear to have married.

Whether Mr Hann had actually died or not, is anyone's guess.

There's this death in Sussex:

Deaths Sep 1907 (>99%)
HANN George Henry P 35 Farnham 2a 79

That's George Henry Percy Hann, who was living in Aldershot in 1901, listed just as Percy, with his father Harry, and doesn't appear to have married, as far as I can see.

Whether he could be Harriet's partner or not, I have no idea.

Rose and William's other 4 children all appear to have mms Hann, and all born in Newhaven.

Rosaline E, 1920
William H G, 1924
Mary E, 1927
Robert S, 1931

I suppose it's possible Arthur (mms Farmer) isn't their son, though I don't see any Baker/Farmer marriage in the Sussex area..

there is 2 other births for Baker/Hann

Betty J 1935

Male 1937

Mavis

Yes, I saw those, but only posted the Newhaven births .
The other two were in Lewes - so are almost certainly the same family.

But both died before 1939.


Deaths Jun 1936 (>99%)
Baker Betty J 1 Lewes 2b 232


Deaths Mar 1937 (>99%)
Baker Male 0 Lewes 2b 299