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Thanks all the same.

The info I posted about the Spencer family children was entirely from the Wikipedia link.
I've done no research to check its accuracy.

where did you find the record of Robert marrying Katherine Colemans?
I can't see that anywhere.

As for the baptism of a son John 1642, the nearest I can find, is this one in London:

John Spencer
in the London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
Name: John Spencer
Gender: Male
Record Type: Christening (Baptism)
Baptism Date: 4 Feb 1643
Baptism Place: St Andrew, Holborn, Camden, London, England
Father: Robert Spencer
Mother: Katherine Spencer
Register Type: Parish Register

I don't see any baptisms for the siblings Thomas and Anne, in either Notts or Warwickshire.



I'm afraid I can't help constructively with this.
Good luck in your search!

Hi ArgyllGran,

Thank you as always for your reply. I've tried to keep this reply streamlined as I know i'm not the best with the structure of some of my responses!

-----YOUR FIRST POST------

The Consensus on Ancestry.com's trees is that I was wrong when I opened this post about the relevant Robert - apologies I did not make this clearer! The modern day Willoughby members have Robert as born in Beckingham instead of the Robert I quoted, The dates therefore add up. I am now working on Robert Spencer born 1620 - 1690 in Beckingham who married Katherine Colemans with the theory being that their children born in Newton Regis/Kingsbury Warwickshire were John born 1642 dying in 1724, along with his Sister Anne born 1638 and Brother Thomas born 1640. So "The Warwickshire jump from Nottinghamshire" is the theory. In terms of my research, I've gone further back to trace forward in an attempt to prove my theory with at least circumstantial evidence linking Nottinghamshire, Warwickshire and Althorpe.

---YOUR SECOND POST---

You say Henry Spencer, 3rd Baron Wormleighton had three children:

1. Lady Dorothy Spencer (1640 - 1670),

2. [Captain] Robert Spencer (born in Paris, died at Althorpe), 1st Viscount Teviot, 2nd Earl Sunderland (1641 - 1702) and

3. Lady Penelope Spencer (1642 - 1667 who died unmarried).

**However, I have read an alternative source that has two extra children all be it the information is lacking:**

4. Henry Spencer (estimated 1625 - 1675), half brother of Robert Smith Jnr and William Smith (although a second marriage when Henry died so young does seem to be a huge leap)

5. George Spencer (estimated 1625 - 1675) also alledgedly a half Brother of the Smith's.

Source: https://www.geni.com/people/Henry-Spencer-1st-Earl-of-Sunderland-and-3rd-Earl-Spencer/6000000001532426324

If your John Spencer 1642 is related to Henry Spencer 3rd Baron Wormleighton, it must be either illegitimately or distantly....

it certainly does look that way (if at all) - but I have a funny feeling that a few chidren have been forgotten about for a lack of titles. Althorpe doesn't much like having poor relations i've noticed (i'll leave that there) i'd speculate that second marriages or affairs wouldn't look pretty for them.

Henry's Father William had four children: two daughters (both married so no Spencer "Surnamed" Offspring, and two Sons, Henry, the other childless so the possibility of illegitimate children would be the only possibility for my early theory to remain intact (Paraphrased)...

I have 11 Children in total with a third Son (William) confirmed from source https://www.geni.com/people/William-Spencer-2nd-Baron-Spencer-of-Wormleighton/6000000001532549163?through=6000000003138436752, all purported to be born of Lady Penelope Wriothsley Spencer born November 8, 1598, died July 16, 1667. I have starred extra potential leads as of course the ladies aren't much use in terms of their names changing upon marriage (I have put question marks as to where I am unsure if they took the Spencer name through marriage) but I've added them all for completeness..

???1. Katherine Spencer??? (Estimated b. 1603 d. 1655) No information about marriage or children either. The estimation is ridiculous as Mother, Lady Penelope would have to have given bith at the age of 5!

2. Mary Spencer (b circa 1615 - d. July 12 1622) - Child Death - RIP.

3. Elizabeth Spencer (b.1618 - d.1672) - Married John Craven (First Baron Craven of Ryton, Warwickshire)

***4. Henry Spencer*** First Earl of Sunderland, Third Baron Spencer of Wormleighton (We know about him already as above) - 1620 - 1643.

5. Anne Spencer (b Circa 1623 - d. Circa 1700) - Married Sir Robert Townsend

6. Baroness Margaret Arrundel (Arrundel is Married Name, was Spencer) (b. July 19 1627 d. December 23 1704).

7. Lady Margaret Ashley Cooper (Cooper is Married Name, was Spencer) (b. July 19 1627 d. May 13th 1696) - Twins with Margaret?

8. Robert Spencer, First and Last Viscount Teviot Spencer b. 1629 - d. 1694 - Married Jane Browne in America, Robert buried in Virginia USA. **Recorded as having died childless**.

***9. Hon William Spencer*** (b. April 30th 1630 - d. March 24 1687). Married Elizabeth Gerard. I Can't find much on him but the fact that his Father was William and he married Elizabeth is in this book here (Link shortened) https://bit.ly/2snDhpA (Our New England Ancestors and Their Descendants 1620-1900 - Historical, Genealogical, Biographical by "Various Authors) ISBN 9781473351769

***10. Thomas Spencer*** (b. 16 July 1635 d. March 24 1687) - the death date of (William Spencer's date of death being the same seems odd unless by a leap they both died in the same battle?) Can't find a record of him.

11. Alice Spencer (b. 29 December 1665 d July 1712) - Married Henry Moore - First Earl of Drogheda - Makes no sense unless there was a **third** wife or the dates are just recorded wrong. If Alice was to actually be born to Lady Penelope (purported Mother), the Mother would have had to be aged 67 and died when Alice was 1/2 years old!

-----

That childless son (Robert Spencer, 1st Viscount Teviot , baptised 2 February 1629 – 20 May 1694) married Jane Spencer, daughter of Sir Thomas Spencer, 3rd Baronet of Yarnton, Oxfordshire. So there's another Spencer family in the mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Spencer,_1st_Viscount_Teviot

---- hmmm, so I have Robert Spencer, 1st Viscount Teviot down as the Son of William, Second Baron Spencer and Lady Penelope Wriothsley Spencer and marrying Jane Browne who becomes Jane Spencer with the birth dates being plausible. You have him as the son of Sir Thomas Spencer (There is a Thomas listed as a brother of Robert who I can't find any information on with Thomas being born 16 July 1635). So, if you're to accept my source, we don't have an additional Spencer family in the mix but an incompletely detailed main family. If we go down yours (and there are certainly some issues with mine), then are we in nomansland?

The position currently is an established link between Althorpe and Nottinghamshire within a stones throw of Robert Spencer (Born Beckingham 1620 - 1690) that must have started somewhere to tie in Robert (I kept reading the two counties as the same with mild dyslexia!) including the Spencer's of Althorpe having MPs in the area and buying Wiseton (less than 10 miles down from the Road from where Robert was living in Mattersley, Doncaster, South Yorkshire, having been born down the road in Beckingham, Nottinghamshire (Now Lincolnshire). Not sure of links back in time from Robert Spencer (Beckingham).

Thanks again!

If your John Spencer 1642 is related to Henry Spencer 3rd Baron Wormleighton, it must be either illegitimately or distantly.

Henry had 3 children:

Lady Dorothy Spencer (1640–1670), married George Savile, 1st Marquess of Halifax and had issue.
Robert Spencer, 2nd Earl of Sunderland (1641–1702)
Lady Penelope Spencer (c. 1642–1667), died unmarried


Henry's father William had two daughters who both married, so their children weren't called Spencer - unless there were illegitimate births before marriage - and two sons, one of whom was Henry, and the other died childless - again, unless he had illegitimate children.

That childless son (Robert Spencer, 1st Viscount Teviot , baptised 2 February 1629 – 20 May 1694) married Jane Spencer, daughter of Sir Thomas Spencer, 3rd Baronet of Yarnton, Oxfordshire. So there's another Spencer family in the mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Spencer,_1st_Viscount_Teviot

All very confusing, and I haven't time this morning to try to unravel it.

Your opening post was about John Spencer (born 1642 - died 1724) who married Sarah Woodcock.


Then you say,
"it seems to be the consensus that John Spencer (born 1642)’s Father was Robert Spencer born in Beckingham Northamptonshire (1637 - 1690) marrying Katherine Colemans."

Looking at the marriage record below, that sentence doesn't make sense.
The marriage was in 1625 , well before the birth of either Robert or John (and it's not clear from your sentence which one of them you think married Katherine) , going by the dates you give - or is this another couple with the same names?

The marriage was in London, not Northants - if that matters.

Besides which, Robert 1637 couldn't possibly be the father of John 1642 - if I've understood your sentence correctly.


. John Spencer
in the London, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials, 1538-1812
Name: John Spencer
Gender: Male
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 29 May 1625
Marriage Place: St Botolph, Aldgate, City of London, London, England
Spouse: Katherine Colemans
Register Type: Parish Register


"Consensus" - where? Is that from other people's trees, or from actual documentary evidence?
If from trees, I suggest that john and Katherine are a complete red herring.

Thanks for this, it seems to be the consensus that John Spencer (born 1642)’s Father was Robert Spencer born in Beckingham Northamptonshire (1637 - 1690) marrying Katherine Colemans. 5 miles down the road was Wiseton - Wiseton was bought by the aristocratic Spencer’s in 1832 by John Spencer 3rd Earl Spencer of Althorpe who died there in 1845.

Although we are talking about that purchase being 200 years later, it seems to establish a link between the aristocratic Spencer’s 5 miles down the road from Robert Spencer (200 years earlier) in Beckingham.

There’s also a Margaret Willoughby marriage into the Spencer’s with her born in Nottinghamshire but dying in Northamptonshire.

If indeed this Robert Spencer is the correct Robert Spencer linking the Spencer’s of Kingsbury Warwickshire with Nottinghamshire, it would seem, although the connections are missing, that it would link us back to Henry Spencer, Earl of Sunderland and third Baron Spencer of Wormleighton.

Seems that there are two many connections for it to be coincidental? Can someone either prove me right or wrong as this family link has been missed off every document going and it would be so nice to get the branch added back onto people’s trees - particularly since many of the Spencer’s from this line suffered in poverty in Victorian times in Kingsbury.

Thanks :)

Taking it upon myself to jump in, in case Malyon doesn't reply -

I'm sure Malyon has no particular reason to think Sarah Woodcock of Derby is necessarily the right one.
She's just posted the baptism as a suggestion, because the date's in the right sort of time-frame.

I found this but I'm probably clutching at straws - I just noticed the death was in Warwick too. https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Almy-8 around the same time and might have flavoured the family's contacts. marriages, direction and social standing etc. Just an idea!

Thank you all none the less! Yeah i'm familiar with the 2 Sir John's, the other link I wasn't! So i've just been digging through the messages -

So overall the confusion becomes Sarah Woodcock and Anne Green's birth/Christening locations. I take your point about Anne Greene of Coleshill likely being too old to have the youngest child, with regard to Sarah Woodcock, the only flags that are coming up on the family tree are two for a Sarah Woodcock born in Rehoboth, Bristol County, MA (USA) in 1646 (the birth year I already have). How confident are you Malyon regarding it being Sarah Woodcock from Derby? There are in fact two Sarah Woodcock's born in Derbyshire on GR (One in 1643 and one in 1644). I've got a marriage to John in Newton Regis, Warks but I may be wrong too of course!

Edit - I'm also not sure of the birth year and birth places of John Spencer (born circa 1626??) (and obviously Anne Greene).

Thanks.

No, sorry, I don't have a particular interest in the family - I'm just one of the people who like to help generally on the boards - and I'm certain Malyon doesn't either.

A John Spencer bought Althorp in 1508 - but I'm sure you know that.

Before that, the family also had land at Wormleighton, Warks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Spencer_(died_1522)

Spencer was the son of William Spencer of Rodburn (1430–1485), and his wife Elizabeth Empson, daughter of Sir Peter Empson.

Can I just thank each and every one of you for your help with this! Does anybody here take an interest in the aristrocratic Spencers - if so, do you have a gut instinct roughly where the link might be between our Warwickshire lot and the Althorpe lot or would you agree I need to get back to about 1500 for it to start unravelling? I will start to disect all of this information in a bit and pop a more direct response on (it might just be another thanks if it gets me back on the beaten trail! Any tips too for how to best research this branch as the records get more and more sketchy?

Thanks :-)

That can't be her, unless baptised as an adult and married a month later.

Oakham's a long way from Kingsbury.

Anne Greene
England, Rutland Parish Registers, 1538-1991
Name:
Anne Greene
Event Type:
Baptism
Event Date:
01 Oct 1637
Event Place:
Oakham, Rutland, England, United Kingdom
Event Place (Original):
Oakham, Rutland, England
Religion:
Anglican
Birth Date:
1637
Father's Name:
Hugh
Mother's Name:
Mary

???

Anne Greene
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: Anne Greene
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 23 Oct 1597
Christening Date (Original): 23 OCT 1597
Christening Place: COLESHILL,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Tho Greene

.
EDIT:
No, probably not - too old to be having those children?

Sarah Woodcock
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name:
Sarah Woodcock
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
06 Mar 1645
Christening Date (Original):
06 MAR 1645
Christening Place:
MICKLEOVER,DERBY,ENGLAND
Father's Name:
Wm. Woodcock

Parents' marriage - image on Ancestry here:

John Spencer
in the Warwickshire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1535-1812
Name: John Spencer
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 16 Nov 1637
Marriage Place: Kingsbury, Warwickshire, England
Parish: Kingsbury
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:
View this parish
Spouse: Hune Greene

Tho. Spenser Or Spencer
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name:
Tho. Spenser Or Spencer
Gender:
Male
Christening Date:
07 Feb 1640
Christening Date (Original):
07 FEB 1640
Christening Place:
KINGSBURY,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Father's Name:
John Spenser Or Spencer
Mother's Name:
Anne

Dorothy Spencer
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name:
Dorothy Spencer
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
24 Jun 1646
Christening Date (Original):
24 JUN 1646
Christening Place:
KINGSBURY,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Father's Name:
John Spencer
Mother's Name:
Anne

Anne Spencer
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Name:
Anne Spencer
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
Nov 1638
Christening Date (Original):
NOV 1638
Christening Place:
KINGSBURY,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Father's Name:
John Spencer
Mother's Name:
Anne

John Spencer
England Marriages, 1538–1973

Name:
John Spencer
Spouse's Name:
Anne Greene
Event Date:
16 Nov 1637
Event Place:
Kingsbury,Warwick,England

John Spencer
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name:
John Spencer
Gender:
Male
Christening Date:
04 Dec 1642
Christening Date (Original):
04 DEC 1642
Christening Place:
NORTHFIELD,WARWICK,ENGLAND
Father's Name:
John Spencer