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Thanks for your help. This is as much as I've found -
John Julian bap. 13.2.1827 Chesterfield St Mary and All Saints, s/o Harry a Fork Maker and Mary (Ancestry)
1841 - with parents aged 14 @ Dronfield, Derbyshire. Henry is a Caster
1850 - 31 October. John 23 marries Lydia Hall 22, Sheffield (he and most of his siblings end up in Ecclesall Bierlow/Sheffield).
Bachelor/spinster. Father's - Henry Julian a Caster and Henry Hall a Farmer
Witnesses - Samuel White and Elizabeth ? Orme (poor writing) and another Arme/Orme - ? initial
Image is available on FMP
1851 - Aged 24 a Caster, with Lydia aged 23 @ Court 4, Trafalgar Street, Ecclesall Bierlow. Lydia born Ashover, Derby
1860 - Lydia dies aged 32
1861 - John aged 34 a Caster @ 19 Bath St., Ecc. B. Widower with children Joseph 4 and Will 2, both mmn Orme
1861 - John remarried Leeds to Ann/Annie Pullan
1871 - aged 43 a Caster @ Victoria Rd. Ecc. B with Ann 44 and children all b Sheffield
Theodora 19 and Lucy 17 both mmn Orme - Found 1861 aged 9 & 7 in a Seminary at Bakewell
Joseph 14, Will 12 and Frank (Francis) 5 mmn Pullan
1881 - aged 54 Ecc. Barlow a Cutlery Carter with Ann and children -
Lucy 26, Will 23, Samuel 20 mmn Orme born same Qtr Lydia died Q3 1860 - where is he 1861? (1871 - Boarding @ Bole Hill School, Great Barlow, Dronfield)
Arthur 17 mmn Pullan (1871 also at Bole Hill School)
1888 - John Julian dies
I'm pretty sure the 1850 marriage to Lydia Hall is correct and that the children in the 1861/71/81 with mmn Orme are theirs. Note the Orme and White marriage witnesses. There are no Julian/Hall births.
BUT Lydia was a Spinster named Hall !!
Ancestry - There is a baptism of a Lydia to Henry and Lucey Aime/Arme of Northedge at Ashover in 1828 and a marriage of a Henry Arm and Lucey White in Ashover 1816 (back to the Arme/Orme and White) witnesses at the wedding of John and Lydia). Not finding them 1841. Other baptisms Arm/Arme/Orme at Ashover 1819-38 (when Lucey Orme of Northedge dies age 39)
1841 - some census pages for Ashover in very poor state but there is a Lydia ? surname aged 14 a Servant living at top of the Town. Possibly a John White in same household.
Henry a Labourer and some of the children at Northedge.
1851 - Henry Arme a Farm Labourer born c1794 Darley, Derbys with wife Dorothy aged 60 b Ashover at Northedge, Ashover.
Second marriage for both 9.2.1845 - Henry Arm a Labourer of Northedge, Father George Wigley married Dorothy Watts Widow of Hockley, Father William Blanks, Labourer. Both of full age. Witnesses - Samuel Lomas and Sarah White.
So who was Lydia? For all the births did she mistakenly give Orme as mmn (what was your mother's name) or was the marriage in the wrong name of Hall - has White / Orme witnesses.
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no marriage for lydia arme on fmp
Lydia Arme
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
Tools
Name:
Lydia Arme
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
17 Feb 1828
Christening Date (Original):
17 FEB 1828
Christening Place:
Ashover, Derbyshire, England
Father's Name:
Henry Arme
Mother's Name:
Lucey
Henry
Last name Arm
Name note -
Marriage year 1816
Marriage date 1816
Marriage place Ashover
Spouse's first name(s) Lucey
Spouse's last name White
Residence Ashover, Derbyshire, England
County Derbyshire
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain
Lucey
Last name Orme
Gender Female
Marital status -
Occupation -
Event year 1838
Birth year -
Age at death -
Burial year 1838
Burial date 17 Dec 1838
Burial place Ashover, Derbyshire, England
Place Ashover
County Derbyshire
Country England
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1841
Northedge, Ashover, Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England
.
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Henry Arm Male 45 1796 Derbyshire, England
Sarah Arm Female 10 1831 Derbyshire, England
Joseph Arm Male 8 1833 Derbyshire, England
Emma Arm Female 6 1835 Derbyshire, England
Joseph Arm
Gender:
Male
Christening Date:
02 Sep 1832
Christening Date (Original):
02 SEP 1832
Christening Place:
Ashover, Derbyshire, England
Father's Name:
Henry Arm
Mother's Name:
Lucy
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Thanks Maddie - those are the records I've been looking at.
The FMP marriage image is for John Julian and Lydia Hall where 2 of the Witnesses are Orme (or Arme) which is why I'm wondering about a mistake.
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seems plausible as the witnesses were ormes/ames
haven't found any armes in sheffield in 1851 and no hall baptims found
one of the witness seems to be s arme
here brother maybe
Saml Arm
Event Type:
Christening
Event Date:
13 Apr 1823
Event Place:
Ashover, Derbyshire, England, United Kingdom
Gender:
Male
Father's Name:
Henry Arm
Mother's Name:
Lucey Arm
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Likewise, the Elizabeth ?Orme could have been her eldest sister.
Was just thinking Arme/Orme to Hall was a bit of a stretch, especially as it was the same part of the country with not a lot of accent excuse!
Henry Orme's second marriage shows his Father as a George Wigley, so how did that one happen - (not looking for an answer to that).
The relationship is very tenuous - the parents of my great aunt by marriage were cousins and John Julian was another cousin of theirs (I have nothing better to do and hate unanswered questions)
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Have you seen below? (FMP) I thought that initial of witness 1850, might have been an 'S'...
Chris :)
Orme Samuel 1826 — 1853 Yorkshire Marriages Sheffield, St George, Brook Hill, Yorkshire (West Riding), England (Mary Ann Johnson)
(his Father, Henry Orme, occ. Farmer, wits. were John and Lydia Julian)
1871
Samuel Orme Head - Male 45 1826 Railway Porter - Derbyshire, England (Ashover)
Mary A Orme Wife - Female 40 1831 - Yorkshire, England
Lydia Orme Daughter - Female 9 1862 - Yorkshire, England
Eva L Orme Daughter - Female 7 1864 - Yorkshire, England
Hodgson Street Court, Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding)
1861
Samuel Orme Head Married Male 37 1824 Parker (Caster, Carter?)
Mary Orme Wife Married Female 30 1831 - -
J Benjn Orme Son - Male 7 1854 - -
Lucy Orme Daughter - Female 5 1856 - -
Samuel Jonbon Relation - Male 0 1861 (is this Samuel Julian?)
Whitley Carr, Ecclesfield, Wortley, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (West Riding)
(another daughter, (GRO Index Johnson)
ORME, Ada Elizabeth (of Hodgson St, born ~).
Baptised February 7, 1869, by C S Wright at St Silas, Gilcar.
Parents name(s) are Mary Ann & Samuel (Carrier).
Note: ~
Godparents: ~ :Page No 46 :Reg No 361
(Burials)
ORME, Mary Ann (Widow, age 70).
Died at 8ct Carlisle St; Buried on February 25, 1901 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 107, Section K1 of Burngreave Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: . Remarks: Officiating Minister, S Chorlton.
Plot Owner: of . Page No
Find Similar in Same Grave
ORME, Samuel (Drayman, age 62).
Died at 35 Brunswick Road; Buried on October 19, 1884 in Consecrated ground;
Grave Number 107, Section K1 of Burngreave Cemetery, Sheffield.
Parent or Next of Kin if Available: . Remarks: P.
Plot Owner: of . Page No
Find Similar in Same Grave
http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/
Sheffield Baptisms
First name(s)
Samuel
Last name Julian
Baptism year 1861
Baptism date 09 Jun 1861
Father's first name(s) John
Mother's first name(s) Lydia
Occupation Carter
Residence Sheffield
Place Ecclesfield
Church Sheffield, Ecclesfield St Mary
County Derbyshire
Place Ashover
Church name All Saints
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 1976
Baptism date 17 Mar 1838
Person forename George
Person sex M
Father forename Henry
Mother forename Lucy
Father surname ORME
Person abode Northedge
Father occupation Labourer
https://www.freereg.org.uk/
(above also has Lydia Arme)
County Derbyshire
Place Ashover
Church name All Saints
Register type Unspecified
Marriage date 9 Feb 1845
Groom forename Henry
Groom surname ARME
Groom parish Ashover
Groom abode Northedge
Bride forename Dorothy
Bride surname WATTS
Bride parish Hockley
Bride condition Widow
Groom father forename George Wigley
Groom father surname ARME
Edits
22 December 1838 - Derbyshire Courier - Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England
Death
On the 13th at Northedge, in the parish of Ashover, Lucy, wife of Mr. Henry Orm, aged 39 years. She has left a large family to lament the loss of an affectionate mother.
Deaths Dec 1838 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
Orm Lucy Chesterfield 19 283
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Thanks Chris Ho -
no I hadn't seen that, was concentrating on Lydia and why Orme became Hall, if indeed it did! Seems like there was a family move to Ecc. B on both the Julian and Orme sides, expect work was the draw.
You could well be right with that being Samuel - keeping him in the family. Original says he was 7 months old so would fit a Q3 registration. Gives creedence to Lydia Hall and Orme being the same person I would have thought.
Samuel Orme seems to have named daughter Lydia after her fairly recently deceased Aunt.
Henry and Lucey had a George 1820, have just checked Derbys burials on Ancestry. Looks like he was buried 3/1838 aged 17 and the George you found was buried 9/39
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(see Edit above, a Burial for Lucy should be about there as well)
Chris :)
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