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(lol, one of life's mysteries I think AG, only fact we know is that she goes by Maria on everything!, and is Sister of Beatrice)...

Chris :)

Yes, that's what I mean, Chris.

If Mary Ann Garland is Carlan, born Apr/May/Jun qr 1884, baptised 12 April 1884 (parents Elizabeth Purcell and James Carlon) , died 16 April 1884 aged 2 days (though there must be a mistake in either the transcription or the original record re her age) - then how can Maria Anna, born 1880/81 also be their daughter?

And yet, she does seem to be. At least, she is the Maria who marries Ramsbottom and McDonald - but we have no birth record for her


Maybe they thought Mary Ann was sufficiently different from Maria Anna.
Or maybe they had to suddenly come up with a name for a dying baby so that she could be baptised, and just said Mary Ann on the spur of the moment.

I think we thought that Mary Ann Garland was possibly Carlan?...leaving the Maria being born 1880ish...(if I've got it right, lol) the Birth Cert. would tell, perhaps...

Chris :)

(it's the not being able to find a Birth Reg., or 1881 for Maria, that's frustrating!, lol)

Oh yes, I forgot about that one.

But then she can't be Maria 1880/81. They're unlikely to have called a child Mary Ann/Maria Anna if they already had a living daughter of that name.

I know it's not an unknown situation - but not common.

(was that her below?, we added somewhere earlier in 'Thread')...

Chris :)

Dea Report 29 Aug 2019 08:39

I don't think we have the birth reg. yet for Mary A (Maria A) ?

Apologies if we have it already..............


GARLAND, MARY ANN PURCELL
GRO Reference: 1884 J Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 439


(I then added below)

Edits (from FMP below, no image)

Garland Mary Ann 1884 — 1884 Yorkshire Burials Sheffield, City Road Cemetery, Yorkshire (West Riding), England (16th April)


Garland, Mary Ann (child, age 2 d).
Died at Corporation St; Buried on April 16, 1884 in Roman Catholic ground; Grave Number 2886, Section GG of City Road Cemetery, Sheffield.

http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/


Deaths Jun 1884 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
Garland Mary Ann 0 Sheffield 9c 241

Yes, that's what it means, Alviegal.

But there's no matching death soon after that, so presumably the child survived.

Also the baptism date needn't bear any relation to the DOB - she could well have been the Maria born 1880, but not baptised until she was ill and they were afraid she would die. (Though we still can't find her birth! )

Going back to this baptism

Carlon, Maria Anna (of ~, born 1884-04-12).
Baptised April 12, 1884, by Joannes J Myers at St Vincents, Sheffield Centre.
Parents name(s) are Elizabeth Purcell & Jacobi ().
Note: Sine ceremoniis in periculo mortis.
Godparents: ~ ~ Ellenora Carlon :Page No 168 :Reg No
Similar Date Baptised Same Household if Available


From my schoolgirl Latin and the help of google, this phrase ': Sine ceremoniis in periculo mortis' translates something like Without ceremony in danger of death. Possibly this was the baptism of a child not expected to survive.

(could well be her on that 1939 AG, FMP has her as Maud!!, Maria on image)

Chris :)

I don't think this has been mentioned before, in James's criminal history:

James Sylvester Carlton
in the England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892
Name: James Sylvester Carlton
Date of Trial: 6 Jul 1888
Trial Year: 1888
Location of Trial: Lancashire, England
Sentence: Imprisonment

[Note spelling of name - Carlton.]

For obtaining money by false pretences, 9 months imprisonment.
There was also a second indictment for obtaining money by false pretences, for which he was sentenced to 9 months, running concurrently.

Is this why the Mutual Sick Pay Association stopped him having anything to do with their money in 1887 ?

Given Maria's age of 87 at death in 1967, and the fact that she's 10 in 1891, perhaps this is her in 1939??

Maria McDonald
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Maria McDonald
Gender: Female
Marital status: Widow <<<<<<<<<<<
Birth Date: 10 Feb 1881
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 40 Windsor Street
Residence Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Schedule Number: 103
Sub Schedule Number: 1
Enumeration District: NKHW
Registration district: 466-3.
Household Members:
Name
Maria McDonald

(plus three closed records)

Maybe just coincidence -
There were three Mcdonald (or MacDonald) / Carlan births in Prestwich 1914-39.

William 1918, and twins Sydney and Thomas N 1923.


Sylann - you mentioned Maria's grand-daughter.
What was her father's name? Was he one of the Mcdonald sons?

She should be about somewhere 1939, Maria Mcdonald...

(wonder what birthdate given there, possibly a widow, seeing below Death)


McDonald Thomas N 1883 1929 1929 England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007 Manchester South, Lancashire, England

Chris :)

(Edits, Ellenora Carlon, have you come across her in 'Tree'?)

Carlon, Maria Anna (of ~, born 1884-04-12).
Baptised April 12, 1884, by Joannes J Myers at St Vincents, Sheffield Centre.
Parents name(s) are Elizabeth Purcell & Jacobi ().
Note: Sine ceremoniis in periculo mortis.
Godparents: ~ ~ Ellenora Carlon :Page No 168 :Reg No
Similar Date Baptised Same Household if Available

Jacob/Jacobi is latin for James on the RC register!! - the registers were in latin !!

Dea x

Yes I saw that and some one has it on ancestry who is the gr granddaughter BUT the fathers name was Jacob ? so I'm not convinced,
Apparently according to Who do you think you are last night the catholic register was written in Latin and Maria Anne was Mary Ann in English,

Also all the children were born in Manchester


I don't think we will find the 1881 census Thank you all for you time and all the info you have found for me

I'll close this thread now and go to the other one

(yes, came across it Dea, but wasn't sure, I was looking round on below the other day in case anything related, could be a possibility!)

Chris :)

http://www.sheffieldindexers.com/ParishBaptismIndex.html

Edits (from FMP below, no image)

Garland Mary Ann 1884 — 1884 Yorkshire Burials Sheffield, City Road Cemetery, Yorkshire (West Riding), England (16th April)

I don't think we have the birth reg. yet for Mary A (Maria A) ?

Apologies if we have it already..............


GARLAND, MARY ANN PURCELL
GRO Reference: 1884 J Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 439

Dea x

I think Mary Ellen has been taken from trees on Ancestry, which show a Mary Ellen in the family - but (as Shirley pointed out earlier) it's a mistake.
This seems to be the birth and death of that child:

CARLAN, MARY ELLEN mms ORMANDY
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in SALFORD Volume 08D Page 135

Deaths Sep 1875 (>99%)
CARLIN Mary Ellen 0 Salford 8d 23

Not sure if if I've missed something in 'Thread', where did you get the Mary Ellen 1875 reference from?...1891 seeing James, Elizabeth and Beatrice, with Mother Elizabeth. Maria being with John Purcell and wife as Visitor (possibly Uncle)

Chris :)

Apparently Maria married John Ramsbottom Maria is? the sister of Beatrice who married Foster Hornby my grandfathers brother. The relation I'm in touch with didn't have any thing to do with the Carlan, Another person I'm in touch with is Maria's granddaughter, she has photos but nothing for her until her marriage and remembering she refered to her as nanny Mac (Mac short for Macdonell her 2nd husband) I thought the 1881 census would link the family together and find out if Mary Ellen And Maria were the same person or two different people

But it would appear the 1881 census is missing for them!!

Are the Ramsbottom family familiar to you?...

Chris :)

Edits (Maria Mcdonald 1967, Blackley Cemetery)

https://www.burialrecords.manchester.gov.uk/

(should be about for 1939 Register)

Yes that is the connection with the Hornby Family, Foster is my grandfathers brother.
I don't shoot any body down in Flames I admire the help that is given.