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If it were my family, I wold be inclined to risk buying the 1927 death cert for Ernest H Herbert, aged 51, in Richmond, Surrey, even if only to rule it out.

(Posted on page 1).

I have asked Philip to come back to the thread in the hope that he might have some further info ?

Dea x

Re Ernest Herbert Herbert and Beatrice -
Philip said "They remained married and had other children in Leigh Lancashire . . . ."

Certainly they had children up to 1928 (or at least registered under the name Herbert), but Beatrice is on her own with some of the children in 1939, and saying she's widowed.

I wonder if Philip knows for sure whether they remained together after 1928-ish or not.

As there's no death for EHH, and also apparently no marriage for Ernest Sole/Sale and Catherine, one has to wonder . . .

Well, it gets us absolutely no further whatsoever but I have found Ernest Sole :


Deaths Jun 1958 (>99%)
SOLE Ernest H 82 Birmingham 9c 403 ************* born c 1876 !!!!!!!!!!!



Record Transcription:
Warwickshire Burials
What can I do with this record?
We will use the details from this record to create your family tree for you.
First name(s) Ernest Herbert
Last name Sole
Birth year -
Death year 1958
Burial year 1958
Cemetery Birmingham, Handsworth Cemetery
County Warwickshire
Country England
Family history society contact
Source
Warwickshire, Birmingham Burials, 1836-2010
Record set Warwickshire Burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Burials
Collections from England, Great Britain

Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy and Heraldry


Also buried in the same cemetery was a Catherine Sole (may or may not be connected??)

SOLE, CATHERINE 62
GRO Reference: 1943 D Quarter in BIRMINGHAM Volume 06D Page 115



I think this is them even though it clearly says 'Sale' !!

Catherine Sale's life in 1939
27 Villa Road, Birmingham C.B., Warwickshire, England

First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Ernest Sale 11 Mar 1876 Male Clerk Grade lll R A F Air Ministry Married 322 1
Catherine Sale 25 May 1881 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 322 2
May Hill 28 Feb 1884 Male Nurse Attendant Single 322 3
Frank Bourne 30 Oct 1907 Male Work Control Chemist Single 322 4
Kenneth C Bryant 03 Aug 1911 Male Resident Engineer Mechanical & Electrical Single 322 5


Do note the date of birth on 1939 for Ernest - it is the same as the newspaper announcement posted above for the one I was following!!

Now, this may just mean that he went back to using the name 'Sole' and that he still could have been the 'Mr. Herbert' we seek but it certainly does not prove otherwise.

Also - where did Catherine come from and what happened to Edith and Basil?

Dea x

Well, I'm certainly at sea with this, Dea.

ARTHUR LESLIE
Last name SOLE
Birth year 1880
Birth quarter 2
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name Tipper
District Birkenhead
County Cheshire
Country England
Volume 8A
Page 560

Arthur Leslie
Last name Sole
Gender Male
Birth year 1880
Baptism year 1880
Baptism date 05 Jun 1880
Place Claughton-Cum-Grange, Christ Church
County Cheshire
Country England
Father's first name(s) Ernest Samuel
Father's last name Sole
Mother's first name(s) Emma Clare
Mother's last name Sole
Record set Cheshire Diocese of Chester parish baptisms 1538-1911

Eric Ernest
Last name Sole
Birth year -
Baptism year 1898
Baptism date 22 May 1898
Baptism place Formby, Holy Trinity
Denomination Church Of England
Diocese Liverpool
Residence Wicks Lane, Formby
Father's first name(s) Ernest Herbert
Mother's first name(s) Edith
County Lancashire
Country England

Aaah well - that solves it then - they were all born and died 'at sea' !!!! :-D :-D :-D

Dea x <3

I don't see the birth of an Edith Jones in Taunton c1869, for that matter!

Aaagh!

I suppose Eric Ernest wasn't necessarily being brought up by his grandparents - maybe he just happened to be visiting them on the night of the census.


ADDED:
Googling "Basil Sole" brings up fish recipes!

Yes AG, I had considered the possibility of a bigamous marriage to Beatrice as being the reason for a change of name but I would really like to find Edith and Basil.

I also wonder why Eric Ernest was brought up by his grandparents?

I am giving up for tonight as it is hurting my little brain now - I will look again tomorrow!!!

Nite nite,

Dea x

Assuming we're right, Ernest must have joined the army between 1901 and 1905, rising to corporal by 1906.

If only someone had Fold3 sub, there might be more to be found on the army record.

Speculation - perhaps his marriage to Beatrice was bigamous, and he changed his name to hide the fact ??
But what did he do with Edith and Basil?!

Eric Ernest died in WW1:

Eric Ernest Sole
in the UK, Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-1919
Name: Eric Ernest Sole
Birth Place: Formby, Lancs
Residence: Boscombe, Hants
Death Date: 23 Apr 1918
Death Place: Home
Enlistment Place: Brockenhurst, Hants
Rank: Private
Regiment: Hampshire Regiment
Battalion: 1st Battalion
Regimental Number: 31661
Type of Casualty: Died
Theatre of War: Home

I wonder where Philip is.................................... ??

Dea x

Also to note is that Ernest Herbert Herbert's father was a 'Cotton Poller' ??? on his marriage cert. - That doesn't really add up but the fact that it is something to do with 'Cotton' does also fit with Ernest Herbert Sole's father who ranges from a Cotton Salesman through to Cotton Merchant and Cotton Broker but always to do with Cotton.

Dea x

Yes - I have those but it's all very strange isn't it ??

All these people and registrations missing........................................ :-(

Dea x

Can't see Basil's birth, either.

Marriages Sep 1895 (>99%)
Jones Edith Liverpool 8b 309
Sole Ernest Herbert Liverpool 8b 309


Births Jun 1898 (>99%)
SOLE Ernest Eric Birkenhead 8a 572

This birth doesn't seem to show up on GRO website to verify mms, although I'm assuming he's the other son.

We 'know' it's him, don't we ?????? ;-)

We just need to prove it now!!!

I also noted that you posted a birth record for the son William:

William Onslow Herbert
in the India, Select Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947
Name: William Onslow Herbert
Gender: Male
Race: White
Birth Date: 17 Jan 1908
Baptism Date: 2 Feb 1908
Baptism Age: 0
Baptism Place: Ranikhet, Bengal, India
Father: Ernest Herbert Herbert
Mother: Beatrice



Note the middle name - ONSLOW............

This could of course be a red herring but it would seem that Ernest H Sole's paternal grandparents were called ANSLOW ??

His father's birth:

SOLE, ERNEST SAMUEL ANSLOW
GRO Reference: 1847 M Quarter in ST NEOTS Volume 14 Page 251

I have followed him right back - this Ernest also went away to Boarding School - His father was a surgeon practitioner and they look to have been quite wealthy.

It really does all fit - we just need to prove it!!

Dea x

Snap, Dea - Mr Sole has also been my favourite for Ernest pre-1911.

Also , the army record posted on 17 June @ 19:40 gives his place of residence as Bournemouth.

But how any of it can be proved, I don't know!

This is what I have been following but I need fresh eyes please!

There is no trace of Ernest Herbert Herbert before 1911 so I was working on a probable change of name somewhere:

I liked the look of this one:

Births Jun 1876 (>99%)
SOLE Ernest Herbert Birkenhead 8a 514


SOLE, ERNEST HERBERT TIPPER
GRO Reference: 1876 J Quarter in BIRKENHEAD Volume 08A Page 514


-March 11th at 23, Alfred-road, Claughton, wife of Ernest S. Sole, son.
13 March 1876 - Liverpool Daily Post - Liverpool, Lancashire, England


With family on 1881:
1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census
7, Woodchurch Lane, Tranmere, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ernest S Sole Head Married Male 33 1848 **Cotton Broker** St Neots, Hampshire, England
Emma C Sole Wife Married Female 30 1851 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
***Herbert E Sole Son Single Male 5 1876 - Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Arthur L Sole Son Single Male 1 1880 - Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Emily Burr Servant Single Female 40 1841 Gen Serv Frome, Somerset, England
Sydney Davies Servant Single Female 18 1863 Gen Serv -


Parents' marriage:
Marriages Jun 1875 (>99%)
SOLE Ernest Samuel Wirral 8a 627 Scan available - click to view
Tipper Emma Clare Wirral 8a 627 Scan available - click to view


(sorry - I don't know why FMP are now transcribing all in capitals !!! It makes things a bit difficult to follow, but..............)
1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
BERESFORD ROAD, OXTON, BIRKENHEAD, Cheshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
ERNEST S SOLE HEAD MARRIED Male 43 1848 COTTON MERCHANT Huntingdonshire, England
EMMA C SOLE WIFE MARRIED Female 38 1853 - Lancashire, England
ARTHUR L SOLE SON - Male 11 1880 SCHOLAR Cheshire, England
J BEATRICE TIPPER WIFES SISTER SINGLE Female 32 1859 LIVING ON HER OWN MEANS Lancashire, England
MARY MURPHY SERVANT SINGLE Female 60 1831 COOK DOMESTIC SERVANT Wexford, Ireland
ADA BROSTER SERVANT SINGLE Female 25 1866 HOUSEMAID DOMESTIC SERVANT Tranmere, Cheshire, England


Ernest Herbert was not with them in 1891 but I believe this to be him:

Ernest Herbert Sole
in the 1891 England Census

Name: Ernest Herbert Sole
Gender: Male
Age: 15
Relationship: Boarder
Birth Year: 1876
Birth Place: Birkenhead
Civil Parish: Fairfield
Residence Place: Fairfield, Fairfield, Derbyshire, England - Park Hurst School*
Sub registration district: Buxton
ED, Institution or Vessel: 2
Neighbors:
Piece: 2778
Folio: 45

Parkhurst School was a top class private school so I am not sure how he ended upo there? : - This would certainly prepare him for a career in the Army.

PARK HURST SCHOOL, BUXTON. A HIGH-CLASS SCHOOL FOR SONS OF GENTLEMEN Principal—D. JOHNSTON, M.A.»

PARK HURST SCHOOL, BUXTON. Principal; D. JOHNSTON. M.A. Second Master: F. DUNCAN. Esq. French Master; Mons. E. DELAYEN.
A limited number of Pupils are prepared for the Universities. Public Schools, Military, Civil Service, and other Examinations or
Commercial
24 July 1880 - Buxton Advertiser - Buxton, Derbyshire, England


By 1901 he was married to Edith with a couple of children (1 child was with his grandmother - Eric Ernest):

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
397, BOROUGH ROAD, BIRKENHEAD, Cheshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
JOSEPH J FERNLEY HEAD MARRIED Male 67 1834 LIVING ON OWN MEANS Stockport, Cheshire, England
ELIZABETH M FERNLEY WIFE MARRIED Female 48 1853 CONFECTIONER Isle of Man, Isle of Man
ALFRED S FERNLEY SON WIDOWER Male 27 1874 BOARDING HOUSE SERVANT Isle of Man, Isle of Man
ELIZA A FERNLEY DAUGHTER SINGLE Female 21 1880 CONFECTIONER Tarvin, Cheshire, England
ERNEST H SOLE BOARDER MARRIED Male 25 1876 COTTON SALESMAN Oxton, Cheshire, England **
EDITH SOLE BOARDER MARRIED Female 32 1869 - Taunton, Somerset, England
BASIL W SOLE BOARDER - Male 2 1899 - Formby, Lancashire, England



Meanwhile, his parents details .....


1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census
THE LAURELS, BACK OF THE TOWN, WEAVERHAM, WEAVERHAM CUM MILTON, NORTHWICH, Cheshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
ERNEST S SOLE HEAD MARRIED Male 53 1848 GENERAL MERCHANT St Neots, Huntingdonshire, England
EMMA C SOLE WIFE MARRIED Female 50 1851 - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
ERNEST E SOLE GRAND SON - Male 3 1898 - Seacombe, Cheshire, England
ARTHUR L SOLE SON SINGLE Male 21 1880 APPRENTICE TO WOOL MERCHANT Oxton, Cheshire, England


Probable death for his father:
Deaths Dec 1905 (>99%) (note - another connection to Hampshire)
Sole Ernest Samuel 57 Southampton 2c 5


His widowed mother, still with 'Herbert's first son, went to live in Hampshire:
1911 Census For England & Wales
Hanga West Road Bournemouth, Bournemouth, Hampshire & Dorset, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Emma C Sole Head Widow Female 60 1851 Private Means Liverpool Lancashire
Eric Ernest Sole Grandson - Male 13 1898 School Sacombe Cheshire
Joseph(Josefa) A E Ogileria Niece Single Female 29 1882 Private Means Exmouth Devonshire (surname is OGILVIE !!)


I can find no further trace of Ernest Herbert Sole, Edith, or Basil after the 1901 census..... BUT, I 'can find Ernest Herbert Herbert and his address is Bournemouth which is where the other 'Sole' one's mother ends up !!!

I have lots more 'bits and pieces' but cannot tie this down to 'fact'.

I feel sure this is a case of 'change of name' but I can't work out why. - Can anyone see anything to either confirm all this or 'smash it out of the water' so I don't have to follow it any more??? - ... PLEASE!! ;-) :-S :-D

Dea x

The man who married Bunce was - allegedly - at least ten years younger that the man being researched.

But Ernest and Beatrice were still together in 1915 .

Birth of the son Ernest as shown on the 1939 Register posted on page 1:

HERBERT, ERNEST mms WHITNALL
GRO Reference: 1915 D Quarter in LEIGH Volume 08C Page 452


and at the same time the other Ernest and Annie had their son Ernest:

HERBERT, ERNEST HENRY mms BUNCE
GRO Reference: 1915 M Quarter in EDMONTON Volume 03A Page 1008

So unless Ernest Herbert Herbert had a very busy double life, they aren't the same person.

The Ernest Herbert who married Annie Elizabeth Bunce (married in 1912), was in the "SW Batt Bedford Rgt" in 1917, whereas Ernest Herbert Herbert was in South Lancs Regiment at least 1915-19 (and earlier).

Ernest Herbert
in the British Army WWI Service Records, 1914-1920
Name: Ernest Herbert
Gender: Male
Birth Date: abt 1889
Enlistment Age: 28
Marriage Date: 2 Jun 1912
Marriage Place: Toltterham
Document Year: 1917
Residence Place: 38 Edenborough Rd, Wood Green
Regiment Name: SW Batt Bedford Rgt
Number of Images: 8
Form Title: Certificate


On the marriage cert of Annie and Herbert, however, his name is given as Ernest Herbert Herbert on the image. He's a bachelor and a porter