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What a great story to pass down though!

It is .............. and I might be tempted to think f-i-l was just telling a story, but I've since read it in a short family history of that family published in a magazine local to the area, written by a woman descended from one of the other siblings, and from a cousin of f-i-l's.

There HAS to be some truth ......... that's why I'm inclined to either a late miscarriage or a stillbirth.

There is one more intriguing detail ........ the last child has 3 forenames, whilst all the others have only 1 name, and one of the names is Latin for 21!

... and I thought my family was complicated. It must be so frustrating that you can’t prove it though.

I think I have to agree with Dea ............... there would be just time for a stillbirth or late miscarriage.

I have somewhat similar in OH's tree.

His great-grandfather had 20 children, born between 1832 and 1860, at roughly 18-24 monthly intervals. They all survived to adult, but less than half of them married and had children.

But some of the descendants have the same story as OH's father ............." they had 20 children twice". After laughter and disbelief, they all explain that means they had 20 children, one died so they had another baby to bring it up to 20.

The huge problem is that I have never found that child ............ no birth, no baptism, no death record, no burial record.

As was usual in that time in that area, they were staunch church goers, and I am quite certain that a still born child would have been said by the midwife to "have taken 2 breaths" and that she had done an emergency baptism so the child would be buried in a family grave.

My f-i-l knew the second youngest child of that family, who did not die until 1938, so did she tell him the story, or did it come down from his father?? There was just barely enough time to have a baby after her before the youngest was born ........... February 1858 to May 1860 ........ and that would have been quite out of norm for previous births.

Whatever, it is an established story that I can't prove!!

The father of that family died in January 1869 of "disease of the kidneys", and the mother died about 3 weeks later in February 1869 of "Chronic Disease of the Heart".

Thanks Dea. I just did a search on the site Sylvia suggested and there is a John registered in the June quarter of 1878, with mother Naylor, so it looks like you're correct in there not being an earlier James.
Thanks.

This is the family in 1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

54, Talbot Street, Eccleston, Prescot, Lancashire, England
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Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Roberts Head Married Male 26 1855 Bricklayer St Helens, Lancashire, England
Margaret Roberts Wife Married Female 25 1856 - St Helens, Lancashire, England
Joseph Roberts Son Single Male 5 1876 - St Helens, Lancashire, England
**James Roberts Son Single Male 3 1878 - St Helens, Lancashire, England
Thomas Roberts Son Single Male 1 1880 - St Helens, Lancashire, England

It does show a James born c 1878 but I believe the image says he is Jno. - (short for John !!)

These births seem to confirm that :


ROBERTS, JOSEPH NAYLOR NAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 729


** ROBERTS, JOHN NAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 704

ROBERTS, THOMAS NAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 757


ROBERTS, JAMES NAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 747

I don't think they had another James.

Dea x

Yvonne ..............

The GRO Index has been available for about 2 years. You can also check deaths from 1837 to much later than 1919. BUT there is one thing to remember about the Death Index .................. the actual age form the certificate on record is posted, but they have not found a way to distinguish between days, week, months and years.

Thus (eg) James Roberts 5 on Freebmd means 5 years, because a death at age below 1 year is shown as 0

But on GRO James Roberts 5 could mean 5 days, 5 weeks, 5 months OR 5 years. So it still is a bit of a guess for children under the age of 12, unless the name is unusual.

I tried looking for unnamed Roberts male with mmn Naylor, but still did not find anything.

It is possible that ...............

a) the baby died soon after birth and in the upset they forgot to register his birth. That death MIGHT have been registered, or a burial possibly found.

b) It was a stillbirth or miscarriage that they named James to themselves. Unfortunately there isn't a registry for still births back then. I'm reminded of this by a good friend whose mother had had a stillbirth, they always talked about "our Christine". So friend's parents had named that baby for themselves, and a constant acknowledgement that the stillbirth child had existed.

Thanks Sylvia. I have used this site for ordering certificates before but never realised you could do a search on there - thanks for that info. I think it's strange that no births with the mother's maiden name of Naylor show up for the first James, especially after the info from another relative. It was years ago when I got that information so not sure I can still contact the person, but worth a try.

This is a good site to use to check mmn from 1837 to ca 1918/19 ...... you have to register but it is free. It is also the site from which to order certificates, so it is safe.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Just follow instructions for GRO Indexes

These are 3 births for James Roberts registered in Prescot between 1874 and 1880

ROBERTS, JAMES mmn BANKS
GRO Reference: 1875 M Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 726

ROBERTS, JAMES mmn PUGH
GRO Reference: 1877 S Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 642

ROBERTS, JAMES mmn MATHER
GRO Reference: 1880 J Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 736


and this is the James we know about ..........

ROBERTS, JAMES mmn NAYLOR
GRO Reference: 1882 D Quarter in PRESCOT Volume 08B Page 747

The Roberts family in Liverpool is not my family - mine all lived St. Helens.

I've been told by the grandson of James' brother that there was a James that died and he thought he was born about 1879. I found a James born June qtr of 1880, Prescot, which could be the one but would have to get certificate to confirm. The other James was born 17 October 1882 according to the baptism record.

I cannot see a birth on GRO Index for a James Roberts mmn Naylor born at a time that would fit with that census or death.

this james died aged 5 could be the one above in 1881 prescot covers eccleston

Deaths Sep 1882
ROBERTS James 5 Prescot 8b 465

could this be thomas and margaret in 1881 with son james aged 3yrs

England and Wales Census, 1881
Name:
Thomas Roberts
Event Type:
Census
Event Date:
1881
Event Place:
Toxteth Park, Lancashire, England
Registration District:
Toxteth Park
Residence Note:
South Street
Gender:
Male
Age:
1
Marital Status:
Single
Relationship to Head of Household:
Son
Birth Year (Estimated):
1880
Birthplace:
L Pool, Lancashire, England
Page Number:
3
Registration Number:
RG11
Piece/Folio:
3647/40
Affiliate Record Type:
Household
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Roberts Head Male 31 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Margaret Roberts Wife Female 28 L Pool, Lancashire, England
James Roberts Son Male 3 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Eleanor Roberts Daughter Female 8 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Thomas Roberts Son Male 1 L Pool, Lancashire, England
James Roberts Nephew Male 0 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Martha Roberts Niece Female 3 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Willie Roberts Nephew Male 8 L Pool, Lancashire, England
Amy L Richardson Lodger Female 13 Birkenhead, Cheshire, England
Isabella Waters Visitor Female 8 L Pool, Lancashire, England

Thanks Sylvia. I think you might’ve hit the nail on the head. I believe there was another James born earlier who died around the time this James was born, so maybe it just got forgotten in their grief.

Possible suggestions .................

they might not have been able to afford to pay for his baptism

couldn't be bothered or forgot because there was some major disruption to the family around the time of his birth

I have seen a baptism in church at a later date after the baby had received a Private Baptism at or just after birth because he was not expected to survive.


There are 3 other children baptised in Eccleston with parents Thomas and Margaret, I'm presuming they are James' siblings. They all were baptised within 4 weeks of birth ...............

therefore I suspect that they either forgot about James for whatever reason, or that it was an early baptism because he was a sickly baby.

In the Lancashire, England, C or E Births & Baptisms there is a record of my ancestor, James Roberts. His baptism was 13 January 1886 at St. Thomas' Church, Eccleston, St. Helens. Written in the margin of all the records on the page are what I think are birth dates - James' birth date is shown as 17 October 1882. All the other baptism records seem to have birth dates of 1885 or 1886. Can anyone suggest why there would be such a huge gap between birth and baptism for my ancestor.

James' parents are Thomas Roberts and Margaret Naylor, their address is shown as 54 Talbot Street.