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Frances in 1911.

Thomas isn't with her, but she's listed as "wife".

Info re Thomas has been written on the form, as if it applied to Frances, then scored out -
occupation - head working gardener, married 7 years.


Frances Lowe
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Frances Lowe
Age in 1911: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Parsonstown, Ireland
Civil Parish: Sutton Coldfield
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Street Address: 9 Riland Road Sutton Coldfield
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Head Working Gardener
Registration District Number: 385
Sub-registration District: Sutton Coldfield
ED, institution, or vessel: 09
Piece: 18380
Household Members:
Name Age
Frances Lowe 49


Parsonstown is in Co Offaly, which is stated as her birthplace in 1921 census.

"Mr Lowe" is on the Summary Book;

Lowe Mr
in the 1911 England Census Summary Books
Name: Lowe Mr
Number of Females: 1
Household schedule number: 110
Street Address: 9 Riland Road
Civil parish: Sutton Coldfield
Ecclesiastical parish: Sutton Coldfield Holy Trinity
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Residence Year: 1911
Registration district: Aston
Registration District Number: 385
Sub-registration district: Sutton Coldfield
Sub-Registration District Number: 6
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors:
Piece: 1104

Have you found Thomas and Frances's deaths?

Maybe?

Deaths Mar 1932 (>99%)
Lowe Thomas 78 Tamworth 6b 547

I'll be happy to look at the documentation you mention.

Thomas Lowe died in 1932 that was the reason for the letter sent to Mr O'Mahony because Barbara/Vera couldn't claim insuranse to pay for funeral until she proved her identity.
I have sent the most relevant doc to you ArgyllGran. Thank you

Aubrey Street, Everton, West Derby, Lancashire, England in 1891
I think this is Grandmother Frances Lowe/O'Mahoney with her first husband and children. Is the son Charles the Charles Kingston ( Mahony in this census) ? Could the younger daughter Evelyn M Mahony be the mother of Barbara Hall? the family think that Barbar's mother was a Mary O'Mahony, who was young when Barbara born in 1908 and the father was a high up English military man by the name of Hall.

The 1891 census for our reference - and unless Frances's maiden surname was Gibson , it may not be the right family. I don't think you've said what Frances's name was:

Frances Mahony
in the 1891 England Census
Name: Frances Mahony
Gender: Female
Age: 32
Relationship: Wife
Birth Year: 1859
Spouse:
Thomas C Mahony
Child:
Francis J Mahony
Charles H Mahony
Eveleen M Mahony
Birth Place: Kings County, Ireland [ aka Offaly ]
Civil parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom
Residence Place: Liverpool, Everton, Lancashire, England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub registration district: South Everton
ED, Institution or Vessel: 29
Neighbors:
Piece: 2948
Folio: 55
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Thomas C [O on image] Mahony 51 Head - land agent, auct[ioneer], Limerick
Frances Mahony 32 Wife
Francis J Mahony 11 Son - Cork
Charles H Mahony 9 Son - Cork
Eveleen M Mahony 7 Daughter - Cork



Ancestry suggests that's this couple:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Marriage of THOMAS OMAHONY and FRANCES GIBSON
on 27 May 1880
Party 1 Name THOMAS OMAHONY [land agent, widower, 45]
Party 2 Name FRANCES GIBSON [governess, spinster, 27 ]
Date of Event 27 May 1880
Group Registration ID 2674437
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown

That Thomas's father was James T O'Mahony, gentleman, deceased.
Frances's father was Samuel Gibson, gentleman, alive.


This is the birth of the son Charles:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Birth of CHARLES OMAHONY in 1882
Name CHARLES OMAHONY
Date of Birth 1882
Group Registration ID 11559431
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown

Born 30 March 1882 at King's Square, Mitchelstown.
CHARLES JOSEPH OMAHONY
Father: Thomas O'mahony, land agent.
Mother: Frances O'mahony, formerly Gibson.


Birth of the son Francis:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Birth of FRANCIS OMAHONY in 1881
Name FRANCIS OMAHONY
Date of Birth 1881
Group Registration ID 8922219
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown

26 Feb 1881, at King's Square, Mitchelstown.
FRANCIS JOSEPH
Father: Thomas, land agent.
Mother: Frances, formerly Gibson.

I don't see the daughter's birth so far.


ADDED:
Looking back through this thread, I see that you did say that Frances's first husband was Thomas O'Mahoney, a land agent from Mitchelstown.
Had you taken that from the 1891 census - or somewhere else??

Thanks for PM'ing me the letter .

Main details, for our reference:

Written at Oscott College, Birmingham on 30 Jan 1932, to Mr O'Mahony, about "this poor girl Vera Lowe alias Barbara Hall", who couldn't pay for "Mr Lowe's burial" because she couldn't prove who she was, in order to obtain funds.

"I certainly knew her by both names for the last five or six years."

"I made one mistake in my former letter. I thought that the girl was about 20 years of age. Now I learn from her that her age is 24 on Feb 12th prox. This would put her birth in early 1908."

To repeat some of what Nicola has already posted -

From letters written in 1926 by "a Mr John Forbes, and from the girl's own statements" -
"A Mrs Sinclair " sent her to John Forbes's wife "to be [something] and brought up."
"A Miss Sinclair said her name was Barbara Hall."
At about age 8, the Sinclairs put her into Carrs School, Dublin.

"From there she came to the Lowes and was led to understand that Mrs Lowe was her grandmother."
"She got her date of birth from a Mrs Irwin who kept a Home in Dublin but later went to America
"The girl thinks that you were a subscriber to Mrs Irwin's Home."

The writer is hoping that Mr O'Mahoney can tell him how to contact Mrs Irwin.
There's no suggestion that Barbara/Vera is any relation to Mr O'Mahoney.

I still can't see the birth of any Barbara or Vera Lowe (or Hall, with mmn Lowe or O'Mahony or variation) in Dublin, 1900-15.
Nor any birth of a Barbara or Vera Gibson.


Can't see Frances Gibson's birth either, with father Samuel.

Charles Kingston (DOB 24 March 1884 per 1939 Register, and born 1884 per his death record) doesn't seem to be the same person as Charles Joseph (mmn Gibson) - DOB 30 March 1882.

How did you know (or at least believe) that "Frances had a daughter Evelyn Mary O'Mahony born after Charles Kingston O'Mahony", which you posted yesterday?
Is that an assumption from the 1891 census, or is the info from somewhere else?

You also said "Frances O'Mahony later Lowe had several children with her first husband Thomas O'Mahony a land agent from Mitchelstown Cork."
Where did that information come from?

Did Thomas O'Mahony die before Frances married Thomas Lowe?
I don't see a likely death, assuming it to have been in Lancashire or Yorkshire.

Possibly Evelyn/Eveleen in 1901 ??

Evelyn O Mahony
in the 1901 England Census
Name: Evelyn O Mahony
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation to Head: Servant
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Ireland
Civil parish: Deighton
Search Photos:
View blank form
Ecclesiastical parish: Escrick St Helen
Town: Deighton
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Registration district: York
Sub-registration district: Escrick
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors:
Piece: 4449
Folio: 41
Page number: 3
Household schedule number: 12
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Richard Hobson 28 Head
Harriet Hobson 28 Wife
Thomas Hobson 1/12 Son
Evelyn O Mahony 16 Servant (domestic nurse)
James Geraght 20 Servant

I hope this helps fill in any blanks
The 1891 census for Mahony's in Everton there is a daughter Evelyn M Mahony ( who I need to rule out as Barbara's mother). The head, Thomas C Mahony I think after looking at image is in fact Thomas O'Mahony, and wife Frances was born right year and place as grandmother Frances in1921. Son Charles H Mahony on this census born 1882 to Thomas O'Mahony and Frances Gibson and died same year( Ireland BMD records) On IrelandXO.com I recieved messages from Gwynneth who wrote at article about this family( O'Mahony Journal No 42 2019) after I read a post about Richard Manderville O'Mahony aka Fifi the Clown. Gywnneth told me that Charles Kingston O'Mahony was born in 1884 to Thomas and Frances after their son Charles H died in 1882 and she had proof, this was a year ago and haven't been able to contact her since. I really believe this family is related to Barbara, she believed Charles Kingson was her uncle. and she lived with Frances for a number of years, why would Frances take her in if she wasn't her grandaugther?There is so much more to say but I risk losing your interest. Thank you all.

Oh, yes - for our reference, here's the death of Charles Joseph - though the middle name isn't given:

SR District/Reg Area - Mitchelstown
Death of CHARLES OMAHONY in 1882
Name CHARLES OMAHONY
Date of Death 1882
Group Registration ID 6234722
SR District/Reg Area Mitchelstown
Deceased Age at Death 0

Died 30 August 1882, aged 5 months, at Kings Square, Mitchelstown.
Father: Thomas O'Mahony, land agent.


The patchiness of Irish records is so frustrating, and the changes of name don't help!
I fear you may have to accept that the proof you hope to find just isn't there.

As far as Barbara's birth is concerned, there's no certainty about the date.
Just to throw a wild possibility into this - in the event that Barbara/Vera's birth name might not have been either of those:

SR District/Reg Area - Dublin
Birth of EVA MAHONY on 10 February 1907
Name EVA MAHONY
Date of Birth 10 February 1907
Group Registration ID 671116
SR District/Reg Area Dublin
Sex Female
Mother's Birth Surname MAHONY

Born at Coombe Hospital.
Mother: Eva Mahony


Not that there's any way of proving or disproving it!

On the other hand, as already said, if the 1922 Dublin fire was when the birth cert was rumoured to have been burned, then there will be no record to find.

Back in 2019 you said that there was a rumour that Barbara had been in a nunnery at some stage.

Does the new paperwork mention anything about that?

The following is all info from the letter dated 1932. Barbara was taken to live with the Forbes when she was 2 (1910) by "Mrs Sinclair", who were told by Sinclair her name was Barabra Hall. She was removed from the care of the Forbes when she was 8 (1916) by " the Sinclair's" and taken to Carr's School, Northbrook St Dublin ( i think this was possibly the Nunnery she spoke of) Barbara then went to live the Lowe's (grandma) Barbara was living with them in 1921 the timeline suggested that she went to the Lowe's about 1918/1920. I have found a deathr ecord for Frances Lowe in Warwick June 1924, aged matches.Forward to 1932 when Frances Spouse Thomas Lowe's death. When Barbara( now Vera Lowe) needed to prove she was Barbara Hall to claim the insurance to pay for Thomas Lowe's funeral. There is adeath record for Frances Lowe in Warwick in 1924 Barbara always said that she lived with her Granma and husband until they were both deceased, which fits with the letter. I still believe that the 1891 census in Everton was the same Frances Lowe/ O'Mahony/nee Gibson as grandma..
A Warwick Constabulary Police Cert dated July 1918 and signed by Frances Lowe was found amoung the doc's with a stamped "Permit ? Ireland 6 July 1918 Valid 3 months" I have sent it ArgyllGran to have a look at. Could it be something that was needed for Barbara to come and live with Frances in Sutton Coldfield? the date fits for Barbara's arrival when she was appox 10.

So need to research info from the letter to Mr O'Mahony in 1932:

Mrs Irwin, who ran a "Home" in Dublin. Irwin gave Barbara her date of birth ( which by coincidense is the same as her son Phillip born 10th Feb 1940 Barbara giving this same date has caused confusion, the family believed Barbara had used Phillip's birth date as her own because she didn't know hers.Mrs Irwin then went to USA.The letter writer was asking Mr O'mahony if he "subsribed to Mrs Irwin's Home" and how she could be contacted.

Find Mrs/Miss/ Sinclair (the Sinclair's later in the letter) who took Barbara aged 2 to the Forbes and then to Carr;s School aged approx 8. Sinclair told the Forbes her name was Barbara Hall.
Find the birth and connection of Charles Kingston O'Mahony to Barbara and Frances( the family strongly believe he was Barbar's uncle) his father was Thomas O'Mahony Land Agent and he was born in Mitchelstown but no birth registered, there is a Charles H son of Frances and Thomas O'Mahony in 1891 census but born 1882 ( the same as their 1st son Charles J was born and died)

The family are convinced Barbara's mother was a Mary O'Mahony and was only 16/17 when Barbara was born and her father was a British Army Captain by the name of Hall. so back to that 1891 census in Everton and Thomas and Frances daughter Evelyn Mary born 1884 though??
Sure you all know when you receive new info, you think at last going to solve this and all you get is more questions :-(

The Police Certificate which Nicola sent me is a certificate of identity, which was required before civilians could travel between Britain and Ireland, in WW1.

Mostly identical to this example:
https://www.aniodhlann.org.uk/object/2013-126-3/

It's impossible to tell why she was going to Ireland.
It may or may not have had something to do with Barbara.

There is no mention of Barbara on the certificate.

Carr's School wasn't a nunnery.
Maybe it just felt like that to Barbara!

It was a home for destitute children - but does seem to have had a strong religious
basis, as many children's homes had at that time:

https://carrschildandfamilyservices.ie/new-about/

Thank you ArgyllGran for looking at the police cert, I thought it was to permit for a Irish resident to stay in England, not for a return to Ireland but as you say it could have been Frances going to collect Barbara, I think that may remain unanswered.
I'm sure Carrs School must have seemed like a Nunnery at 8 years old,all she had known was the Forbes family.
So far this latest info (with help on here), has confirmed everything Barbara said to her family was correct and I'm sure the rest regarding who she thought were relations Charles Kingston, Catherrine Tynan and Muriel Stuart must have some truth,
It's a challenge and possibly will never find out the full story of her awful childhood but I'm sorry I doubted her. Thanks for all your help so far. :

Argyllgran has seen this new info and rightly cannot make any sense of these fragments of a letter recently found. I believe is a reply from Mr O'mahony to T Bird of Orsett College (letter I posted 23rd February in this thread ) dated1932. It ends yours sincerely C O???? it seems to be answering the questions asked of Mr O'Mahony. " All idea if calling her after her mother O'mahony, or her father Mawlowe was early on abandoned. Mrs Irwin another good friend of my sister, I regret however that she died in March 1930 at a great age. Mrs Sinclair is also dead. The only person likely to be of help is Rosabelle Sinclair, last time I spoke to her she was abroad, her previous address is Hollyhill, Co Tyrone." The rest is just pieces and ends" did has Lowe should have....fact in his Will. Yours sincerely C O???
Could C O ??? be Charles Kingston O'Mahony talking about his sister Eveleen M O'mahony? Barbara mentioned a cousin Muriel Stuart Muriel Irwin Stuart was a poet, could she be the daughter of Mrs Irwin? John Evelyn o'Mahony ( was married to Alice Sinclair) daughter of Richard Sinclair from Dublin a photographer as Barbara and other family were. Really long last shot but any help appreciated.

A Google search for Muriel Irwin Stuart only brings up Muriel Stuart Irwin, a poet.

Can this be the person you mean? If so, she doesn't seem to be the daughter of Mrs Irwin.

Born 1885, died 1967.
Daughter of a barrister of Scottish descent, but lived all her life in London and Berkshire. Born in Norbury.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muriel_Stuart
https://persephonebooks.co.uk/pages/muriel-stuart
https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poet/muriel-stuart/

But having said that, this article calls her Muriel Irwin Stuart:
https://pennyspoetry.fandom.com/wiki/Muriel_Stuart



Muriel Stuart Irwin
in the 1911 England Census
Name Muriel Stuart Irwin
Age in 1911 26
Estimated Birth Year abt 1885
Relation to Head Daughter
Gender Female
Birth Place Norbury, Surrey, England
Civil parish Ealing
County/Island Middlesex
Country England
Street Address 6 Long Field Road, Ealing
Marital Status Single
Registration District Number 128
Sub-registration district Brentford
ED, institution, or vessel 12
Piece 6879
Household Members (Name) Age Relationship
Thomas Lennon Irwin 64 Head - political agent - London
Elizabeth Brewer Irwin 60 Wife - London
Muriel Stuart Irwin 26 Daughter
Alison Lannon Irwin 23 Daughter
Valeric Jascoigna Irwin 16 Daughter
Julia New 67 Wife's Cousin (Cousin)
Carrie Platt 49 Servant
Gertrude Platt 20 Servant


Thomas Lennord Irwin
in the England, Select Marriages, 1538-1973
Name Thomas Lennord Irwin
Gender Male
Marriage Date 3 Oct 1882
Marriage Place Beckford,Gloucester,England
Spouse
Elizabeth Brewer Freeman
FHL Film Number 994248

Thomas Lennox Irwin died 1918. Administration to his widow, Elizabeth Brewer Irwin.

Elizabeth died in 1941 - so definitely not the Mrs Irwin who died in 1930.

"Mrs Irwin" presumably died in the USA. (Your post on 25 Feb at 18:15 says she went to USA.)

She must have emigrated between 1908 and 1930.

We can't assume she was Irish.
It's a pity we don't know her first name.