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John Samuel Hall. Married to Ellen Bowden a widow, maiden name Walsh born 1844.
Ellen Walsh father Michael Walsh, Mother Julia Condon.
They all lived in the Bermondsey/Rotherhithe/Southwark area of London.

What is it you want to know Dawn?

When were they married? Not seeing it.

You must have got back to them so what info are you looking for please

? Ellen's first marriage

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Mar 1870 (>99%)
Bowden Thomas St.Olave 1d 231
Hawick Emma Frances F St Olave 1d 231
MACEY Edward William St Olave 1d 231
Walsh Ellen St Olave 1d 231

Not seeing your info so starting from the parents

England, Select Marriages, 1538–1973 No Image
Name: Michael Walsh
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 4 Oct 1840
Marriage Place: Saint James,Bermondsey,Surrey,England
Spouse: Julia Condon
FHL Film Number: 254555, 254556, 254557, 254558

Name: Michael Walsh
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: 1819
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Julia Walsh
Mother's name: Mary Walsh
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Southwark St John
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: St John Horsleydown
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 232
Piece: 317
Folio: 25
Page Number: 43
Household Members:
Name Age
Michael Walsh 42 occ wharf labourer
Julia Walsh 40
Ellen Walsh 17
Catherine Walsh 15
Margaret Walsh 12
Johanna Walsh
Andrew Walsh 3
Mary Walsh 66

Ellen and Thomas 1871

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Boss Street, St John, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Bowden Head - Male 25 1846 - Surrey, England
Ellen Bowden Wife - Female 25 1846 - Surrey, England
Thomas W Bowden Son - Male 0 1871 - Surrey, England

Not seeing a marriage for her to john Samuel hall

Have you found them on any census

Thomas death

Deaths Dec 1876
Bowden Thomas 31 St Olave 1d 129

children to Thomas and Ellen - not seeing any after 1873

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
BOWDEN, THOMAS WILLIAM WALSH
GRO Reference: 1870 S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Pa

BOWDEN, JOHN WALSH
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 179

----------------------
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Mar 1874 (>99%)
BOWDEN Thomas William 3 St. Olave

----------------------------------
??
There' are these births in the right area for a Hall / Walsh

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HALL, EMILY WALSH
GRO Reference: 1879 J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 242

HALL, ANDREW WILLIAM WALSH
GRO Reference: 1883 S Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Pag

HALL, ALICE WALSH
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 254
------------------------
??
and this 1891 census

Ellen born Middlesex not Surrey as per 1881 and widowed

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Litlington Street, Rotherhithe, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Ellen Hall Head Widow Female 43 1848 Charwoman London, Middlesex, England
Emily Hall Daughter - Female 9 1882 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Andrew Hall Son - Male 6 1885 Scholar Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Alice Hall Daughter - Female 3 1888 Scholar Bermondsey, Surrey, England

Original shows Ellen and emily also b Bermondsey

Theres no marriage but presume you have one of the birth certs that name him as father

they may have been together but parted because there's this marriage

Marriages Sep 1884
COOPER Jane St.Olave 1d 458
Hall John Samuel St. Olave 1d 458
Peakall Alfred John St. Olave 1d 458
Read Margaret Annie St. Olave 1d 458

Thank you for all the information. The Emily Hall, Andrew Wm Hall and Alice Hall are my relatives. Alice was my grandmother.
They all Have John Hall listed as the father, on Alice's it says John Samuel Hall.
In 1895 Ellen died, (her death cert 'wife of John Hall'). Andrew and Alice were admitted to the Parish Street workhouse by their aunt Catherine Lakeman who states "Father John deserted wife and children 6 years ago"
I have a copy of a letter from St.Lukes School for the Religious Instruction of Children, Rotherhithe. Sept.1895 to the Workhouse and states "......that 5 of our children have been sent to Parish Street workhouse" then after mentioning the other three he goes on to say "......Andrew, age 12 and Alice,age 7 Hall, Late of 20 Tissington Street. Each family was in receipt of charitable relief, the fathers either being deceased or away at sea",
I have not been able to find any trace of them seeking relief, or any trace of Ellen or Emily in the 1881 census. Emily was born in 1879. I thought that would show her father, John Hall and where he was born etc. In all other certificates his occupation is either cooper, hoop maker or hoop bender, hoop rivetter. So he always stayed in the same type of work, and always in Rotherhithe or Bermondsey, at least from 1879, Emily, to Alice 1887.
.I just can't find him.
Thank you so much for your help. I am sorry I have not been able to get back to the thread until now.

possibly this man- area/ occupation matches:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

30, Princes Road, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England
Elizabeth Clark Head Widow Female 55 1826 Mon Nurse Ditchfield, Suffolk, England
Arthur Wilks Boarder Single Male 31 1850 Cooper Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
John Hall Boarder Single Male 26 1855 Hoop Bender Bermondsey, Surrey,
Janet Pledger Boarder Single Female 20 1861 Serv (Dom) Hampshire, England
------------------------------------

The John Samuel that married Jane Cooper was a different man:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

1, Ber Buildings, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England
John Hall Head Married Male 50 1831 Carman Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Elizabeth Hall Wife Married Female 50 1831 Housewife Bermondsey, Surrey, England
John S Hall Son Single Male 17 1864 Dyer (Undef) Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Louisa Hall Daughter Single Female 13 1868 Box Maker Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Henry J Hall Son Single Male 11 1870 Scholar Newington, Kent, England
George Hall Son Single Male 9 1872 Scholar Newington, Kent, England
Eleanor Hall Grandmother Widow Female 87 1794 Annuitant Tunbridge Wells, Kent, England

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Larnaca Street, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England
John Hall Head Married Male 27 1864 Hop Warehouseman London, Middlesex, England
Jane Hall Wife Married Female 26 1865 Collar Ironer London, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth Hall Daughter - Female 6 1885 Scholar London, Middlesex, England
Rosey Hall Daughter - Female 2 1889 - London, Middlesex, England
John Hall Son - Male 0 1891 - London, Middlesex, England
Susannah Cooper Mother In Law Widow Female 57 1834 Needle Woman Buckinghamshire, England
------------------------------

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census

45, Larnaca Street, Bermondsey, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England
Jane Hall Head Widow Female 36 1865 ? Laundry Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Lizzie Hall Daughter Single Female 16 1885 Machinist Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Edith R Hall Daughter Single Female 12 1889 - Bermondsey, Surrey, England
--------------------------------------

Death:
First name(s) JOHN SAMUEL
Last name HALL
Gender Male
Birth year 1864
Age 37
Death quarter 1
Death year 1901
District St. Olave Southwark
County London
Volume 1D Page 120

This is possibly Emily in 1881- with her half brother John. Both are listed with surname Bowden:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

St Olaves Union Workhouse, Horsleydown, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England
John Bowden 8 Inmate Scholar Southwark, Surrey
Emma Bowden 3 Inmate Scholar Southwark,Surrey
---------------------------------

And here's Ellen in the workhouse infirmary- also under surname Bowden:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

St Olaves Union Infirmary, Rotherhithe, St Olave Southwark, London & Surrey, England
First name(s) Ellen
Last name Bowden
Relationship Inmate
Marital status Widow
Sex Female
Age 32
Birth year 1849
Birth town Horsey Down
Birth county Surrey
Occupation Charing
House name St Olaves Union Infirmary

Thank you for that information. I will investigate the posibilty of Emily being mis-spelt as Emma and having a half brother. John.
I know Ellen married 1870, was widowed from Thomas Bowden in 1876, had a son Thomas Wm Bowden born 1870 died 1874, so she could have had another son before Thomas died.
I wonder why the children were in one workhouse and Ellen in another?
I think the death of John Samuel Hall in 1901 would make him 20 years younger than Ellen and only 15 when Emily was born. Her birth cert states John Hall as her father, a Hoop Rivetter.
Kind regards.

They were all in the St Olave's Union Workhouse but it seems that the mother Ellen was in need of medical treatment rather than just food and shelter so she was in the hospital section.

The Workhouse covered a very large area and so the hospital section came under a slightly different address.

This is explained at the Workhouse website, here:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/StOlave/

"The workhouse site was the corner of Parish Street and Crucifix Lane (now Druid Street), Bermondsey. In 1733, St Olave's was divided into two and the area containing the workhouse fell in the new parish of St John Horsleydown."

It gives a lot more info on that site if you are interested.

Dea x

The census and death information provided re John Samuel Hall was just to discount the following marriage for your John Hall:

Marriages Sep 1884
COOPER Jane St.Olave 1d 458
Hall John Samuel St. Olave 1d 458
-------------------------------------

Greyghost posted John's birth earlier:

BOWDEN, JOHN (mother's maiden name: WALSH)
GRO Reference: 1873 J Quarter in SAINT OLAVE SOUTHWARK Volume 01D Page 179

This is his baptism:

Name: John Bowden
Gender: Male
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Apr 1873
Baptism Place: Horselydown St John, Southwark, England
Father: Thomas Bowden (waterman)
Mother: Ellen Bowden
Abode: John St
Register Type: Parish Registers

Also note that Emily/ Emma are often interchangeable
-------------------------------------

Ellen was in the union infirmary which I believe was separate to the union workhouse. If she was sick and no-one could take her children they would've gone into the workhouse:
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/StOlave/

EDIT: Dea beat me to it!