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"I used to say Hail Mary and Our Father au nom du père et du fils et du saint esprit amen"

"My sister Frances told me today that Annie had dressed up like that for the photo for reasons only known to herself"

"The photo of the 2 Annie’s was taken in Broxburn at home"

She died January 1969

So Annie Scullion Kelly is the seated lady?

Which means the photo could have been taken in the 1930's or 1940's (or later ? - I've forgotten when she died ).
Which would account for the apparently modern-ish cement wall behind them.

I have asked, but my contact didn't seem to know of any. Thanks for the article, what a pity they didn't repeat what the slander was :-) She seems to have been quite a gal in her day, her granddaughter said this of her :

"We only have the photograph that Frances sent Sue of Annie Scullion Kelly and her first born who was Annie Scullion

I spent a year with my grandmother Annie Scullion Kelly when she moved from her house in Cardross, Broxburn, to St Joseph’s care home run by nuns Gilmore Place Edinburgh in 1968 till her death in 1969. She had male residents proposing to her even then. She used to get me to say prayers with her in French when I visited her"

So she should be able to identify the lady in the photo.

It could be AG- it's frustrating not to know!

Jan- do they have any other photos of Annie- perhaps when she was older? I'm thinking it can't be the only photo? Or perhaps other photos of the younger lady?

I've sent you the 1913 article re Annie Scullion

Don't know - I suspect they're pretty ageless.

Just a thought - and pure unprovable speculation -
Annie seated, with a younger relative dressed up in one of Annie's old dresses from her youth ??

I don't know anything about aprons (pinnys)- could that offer any clues?

Oh yes, I see her legs now.

Poor woman - she would be scandalised to think her legs were being discussed in public a hundred (or so) years later.

The glasses of the older lady also make the photo seem later (although I'm not expert on glasses). It's a shame we can't see the footwear of the older lady

http://prntscr.com/mrfb67

I've brightened the photograph so you can see her lower legs. In my parents' wedding photographs, 1933, both my grandmothers' dresses show just a small amount of their foot when they are seated. far less than Annie is showing.

And I noticed that the chair looks rather fancy too - you can see a piece over her right shoulder, and the turnings of the chair legs.

I can see to mid calf before the dress takes over.

I wonder what Annie had been up to, that caused the slander.

I imagine the wall would be in Broxburn.

The slander was made against Annie by Dominick McKenna.

I don't see the older woman showing any leg.
Her dress seems to be long, dark, with long sleeves and high neck , but otherwise, it's not really possible to say what style it is. Not much is visible around the pinny, and it's partly obscured by the reflection of the flash on the photo.

But the wall behind them is interesting. It's very clean and light-coloured, and made up of large flat pieces, almost like cement cladding.

It's not a blackened industrial-era tenement wall, nor is it an Irish farmhouse, I wouldn't have thought.

Thanks for that Austin - I'm a bit confused (again), does that mean the slander was made against or by Annie Scullion?

I didn't realise that her father was also at Haligate, Broxburn - No. 70 was one of the houses rented by Peter Kelly, so obviously her widowed father came to live with them.

The photo was mailed to me by Annie Scullion Kelly's granddaughter, who remembers her grandmother and is vehement that that is she, with her daughter Annie Jane.

I've just had another look at the photo, and I agree with Austin that the older woman's dress is later than I'd realised, she is unashamedly showing a lot of lower leg. Perhaps the younger woman was dressed up for a special event (dance? fancy dress party?) and the photo was taken to show off how she looked.

I've not been following all the posts, but the photo seems a little odd. The dress of the younger women seems to be a mourning dress (around 1900- 1910, although i'm not certain), but if I was to see the older woman on her own I would have said the photo is later. The informal style also indicates that it could be later. Sorry I don't have anything helpful to add. (I did wonder if the photo was from James Scullion's family? A lot scope for confusion with a Scullion/ Scullion marriage!)

I did see this article re Annie (not sure if it's been posted):

Airdrie & Coatbridge Advertiser 25 October 1913

ALLEGED SLANDER
Before Sheriff M'Leod, in the Linlithgow Sheriff Court on Thursday, proof was led in an action by Mrs Annie Scullion or Scullion, wife of James Scullion, labourer, 18 Stewartfield Rows, Broxburn, with consent of her husband, against Dominick M'kenna, labourer 10 Stewartfield Rows Broxburn concluding for £20 in name of reparation for alleged slanderous statements said to have been made by defender concerning pursuers moral character...
---------------------

Also, the death of Annie's father:

November 9th 1929
Maurice Scullion (widower of Jane Morris)
Address: 70 Haligate, Broxburn
Age: 79 yrs
Father: Maurice Scullion (tailor) deceased
Mother: Isabella Scullion (m.s McLennon) deceased
Informant: Annie Kelly, daughter (present)

But with her father labourer then farmer/weaver, I can't see that they could afford finishing school abroad, they possibly didn't even know such things existed. I don't know what the education system was like in those days, I thought most children left school at 13-15 to start working. But I can't say to Anne Kelly that she's got it all wrong, she's been researching this family for years (but didn't have a copy of the records of Annie Scullion's birth or marriages).

I agree its more likely that the photo is of a young Annie with an older relation - perhaps as Annie aged she looked like the older relly, hence the mistake in identity.

She also told me that the discrepancy in the years of birth for Maurice Kelly (1913 in army records, 1917 in birth records) was because he had an older brother also Maurice who died young, and he used his birth certificate when enlisting. But he would have been old enough to enlist in his own right by 1939, and a brother born in 1913 would presumably have been Scullion, not Kelly, as her first husband didn't die until 1915.

Annie Jane certainly wouldn't be wearing a dress like that in the 1930's.

Datewise, the photo seems more likely to be Annie Scullion Kelly and older relation - but the French finishing school still seems unlikely.

Born 1877, married James Scullion 1902. So if she was in France it must have been between 1892-ish and 1900.
She's living with her parents in 1891, and with brother Maurice in 1901 (although YOB a few years out) as "housekeeper".

But there's no way of knowing where she was 1892-1900.


In the excellent Scottish education system of the time, she may well have learned French at school in Uphall, and been good at it - and maybe later jokingly claimed to have gone to a French finishing school, and someone took her seriously.

I had a chat on FB last night with Anne Kelly, daughter of Peter Kelly Jnr, so granddaughter of Peter Snr and Annie Scullion Kelly. She insists that the photograph is of her grandmother and aunt, Annie Jane Scullion. The latter was born in 1908.

SCULLION
ANNIE JANE
F
1908
496/ 498
Dumbarton

I looked at the record, and parents were James and Annie Scullion, nee Scullion. Annie was 30 when she had Annie Jane. I still can't reconcile those ages with the relative ages of the women in the photo, or the date it could have been taken, but Anne Kelly remembers her grandmother very well, used to visit her in the nursing home where she died, and said they used to say prayers together in French. Now Annie was Roman Catholic, and possibly might have said prayers in Latin. I will try very carefully to find out more.

Maybe they didn't. If the finishing school bit isn't true, who knows what is. On her marriage to James Scullion, her father was shown as Labourer, which doesn't really sound as if he has a lot of money.

Out of curiosity, do you think she was maybe a first cousin to her first husband? Wonder why her family would disown her.

Yes, it does sound like a bit of a wishful-thinking fabrication.

But maybe your Kelly contacts will know something more!