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Do we have a fashion expert who could date this photograph by the younger woman's clothes? My guess is 1910ish, but I'm no expert on such things.

http://prntscr.com/mpqjdh

The older woman is Annie Kelly nee Scullion, I'm trying to work out who the younger one is, as I was told it was her daughter also Annie. I have only found sons for Annie Scullion, and wonder if this could be the Anne born in the USA in 1887.

I'm no expert either, but comparing it with my own family photos, I'd guess somewhere between 1890 and 1915.
Pretty vague, I know.

Clothes would vary according to location, social standing, and financial situation.
The date of the photo could be a lot later than the date of the clothes.

This couple have clearly not dressed up in their best for the photo - Annie's still in her pinny!

I'm hoping that is a pattern on her pinny, otherwise it looks as if she's just slaughtered their evening meal.

I'm beginning to query that photograph - Annie Scullion was born in 1877, so in 1910 she would have been 33. Perhaps she is the younger woman.

I wonder if it was Annie Kelly nee Scullion and her mother. This is her mother's death

JANE SCULLION
Date of Death 1918
Group Registration ID 5648634
SR District/Reg Area Magherafelt
Deceased Age at Death 77
Image

Thanks, RG, that's interesting, and does make sense. She died at Ballyscullion. However, it doesn't tie in with additional information I have just received from the daughter of our Peter Kelly's son Peter:

" My granny* was educated at a finishing school in France and spoke fluent French. Her family disinherited her when she married her first husband. She was born a Scullion and married a Scullion. Granny had a relative James Scullion who changed his name to James Scullin. He became Prime Minister of Australia in 1929 until 1932."

*"My granny" refers to Annie Scullion. I've just mailed her, asking for more information about the photo and querying the dates, etc.

If the photo was taken 1900-2, Annie would have been approx. 24.

The woman in the photo looks older than that - but it may just be the hairstyle giving that impression.
She's certainly stylishly dressed, compared with her mother (if that's who the lady in the pinny is), which could be because the French influence..

I would say it's not impossible that that's Annie. (I mean the younger one)

Funny - I had had the impression that because her father was a shipyard labourer/weaver/farmer, the family wouldn't be well off. A French finishing school seems entirely at odds with that.

James Henry Scullin (18 September 1876 – 28 January 1953) was an Australian Labor Party politician and the ninth Prime Minister of Australia.

The son of working-class Irish-immigrants, Scullin spent much of his early life as a laborer and grocer in Ballarat.

James Henry Scullin was born in Trawalla, Victoria on 18 September 1876. His parents, John and Ann (née Logan) Scullin, were both Irish Catholics from County Londonderry. His father was a railway labourer, who emigrated to Australia in his 20s. His mother joined her husband in Australia later. James was the fourth of eight children, and grew up in a tight-knit and devoutly Catholic home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Scullin

Annie was supposed to be the older woman in the photo - which just seems impossible to me. The younger one could be, and she certainly does look very well dressed. But I wonder if the finishing school etc is just family legend rather than fact. I know when I started researching my own family, my elder sister told me things about my paternal grandparent which proved totally untrue, but she had believed them.

Ditto the story of James Henry Scullin - the name was similar, so they claimed him as their own.

Conversely, Annie was born in Magherafelt, Londonderry, and the marriage I found for Annie's parents, between Maurice Scullion and Jane nee Morris, also took place there. That is also where you found the death record for Jane Scullion.

My feeling is that the photograph is of a young Annie with her mother (or possibly even grandmother), and that the story of finishing school is wishful thinking. I have emailed my Kelly contacts to ask for more information. Nothing in the background that I have uncovered indicates any money at all, and the older woman certainly doesn't look either educated or affluent, just a typical country woman from a poor background.

I have given them access to my tree, I am now waiting to see if they pick holes in it.

I have just found in the 1881 Scottish Census an Annie Scullion born 1876 in Uphall. Can't find birth record in Scotlands People yet - could I have been tracing the wrong Annie Scullion?

She was living with her married sister Agnes Gilden, 21, sister Elizabeth Scullion, 11, and Agnes' husband Peter, 23, Shale Miner, born Ireland - all living at 63 Hallygate. Still doesn't sound the sort of family to send a child to finishing school.

Phew, I don't think I've been following the wrong Annie - just checking on their marriage certificate, and her parents are Maurice Scullion, and Jane nee Morris. The Uphall Annie Scullion's parents were William and Eliza nee Daley. Quite a coincidence though. Perhaps that's why she moved to Broxburn after her first husband died, to be near relatives.

For our reference - I haven't looked back through all this long thread to see if it's been posted before or not!


Annie Scullion
in the 1881 Scotland Census
Name: Annie Scullion
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1876
Relationship: Sister
Gender: Female
Where born: Linlith, Uphall
Registration Number: 672
Registration district: Uphall
Civil Parish: Uphall
County: West Lothian
Address: Hallygate No 63
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 2
Household schedule number: 131
Line: 5
Roll: cssct1881_274
Household Members:
Name Age
Peter Gilden 23 - head, Ireland, shale miner
Agnes Gilden 21 - wife, Linlithgow/Livingston
Elizabeth Gilden 9 Mo - daughter, Linlithgow/Uphall
Elizabeth Scullion 11 - sister, Linlithgow/Uphall
Annie Scullion 5
John Connelly 34 - lodger, Ireland

Peter and Agnes in 1901 - note address 36 Stewartfield:



Peter Gildal
in the 1901 Scotland Census
Name: Peter Gildal
Age: 43
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Agnes Gildae
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 672
Registration district: Uphall
Civil Parish: Uphall
County: West Lothian
Address: 36 Stewartfield
Occupation: Shale Miner
ED: 6
Household schedule number: 164
Line: 25
Roll: CSSCT1901_359
Household Members:
Name Age
Peter Gildal 43
Agnes Gildae 40 - Ireland
Peter Gildae 18
William Gildae 16
Annie Gildae 13
Henry Gildae 11
John Gildae 8
Thomas Gildae 11mo
Eliza Kirkwood 14 - cousin, Uphall
John Carroll 36 - boarder, America, shale miner
Patrick Molloy 34 - boarder, Ireland, shale miner
John King 31 - boarder, West Calder, Midlothian, shale miner


All the Gildae children born Uphall, Linlithgow.

Young Elizabeth Gilden's birth ??

KILDAY
ELIZABETH
F
1880
672/ 116
Uphall



????
SCULLION
ANN
F
1874
672/ 84
Uphall

Peter and Agnes's marriage:

KILDAY
PETER
SCULLION
NANCY
1879
672/ 14
Uphall

Agnes Sculion
in the 1871 Scotland Census
Name: Agnes Sculion
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relationship: Daughter
Father's name: William Saelion
Mother's name: Eliza Saelion
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Registration Number: 672
Registration district: Uphall
Civil Parish: Uphall
County: West Lothian
Address: Upper Uphall
Occupation: Scholar
ED: 3
Household schedule number: 117
Line: 12
Roll: CSSCT1871_153
Household Members:
Name Age
William Saelion 30 - Ireland
Eliza Saelion 32 - Ireland
Agnes Sculion 11
Hugh Sculion 9 - Livingston
John Sculion 7 - Livingston
Elizabeth Sculion 1 - sister of Agnes, as in 1881 census
Peth Mclean 50 - boarder, Ireland
Patrick Mcgee 24 - boarder, Ireland

Ah - possibly the death of that Annie Scullion:

SCULLION
ANNIE
6
1881
672/ 50
Uphall

I've looked at Annie Scullion's first marriage, to James Scullion, she is described as domestic servant. Surely if she had had a good education, and was fluent in French, she would have become a governess. And they said she was disowned after her first marriage - it just doesn't add up.

Yes, it does sound like a bit of a wishful-thinking fabrication.

But maybe your Kelly contacts will know something more!

Out of curiosity, do you think she was maybe a first cousin to her first husband? Wonder why her family would disown her.