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Heather ..................

1. Regarding your post ......... "Thomas father was down as a 'labourer' it did not state he was deceased in the second marriage cert of 1881."

This MAY not be true ..... a lot depends on what the vicar asked and what the person replied


For example, if the vicar asked "What is your father's name and occupation?"
The response could well be just that information, with no volunteering of the fact that father was dead. If the vicar did not then ask "Is he still alive?", then the certificate will not show him deceased.

If the vicar either asked "What is your father's name and occupation, and is he still alive?" .......... then you would get a fuller answer.


2. He might well have been a student but only for a short period, and may not have learnt to write. BUT it was the vicar who often put the' x' on the certificate ...... so he might well have assumed that Thomas couldn't write without even asking him!


Never entirely trust any information on any certificate!!!!

Hi, I noted that on the 1851 census Thomas then aged 7 is down as a scholar, this would lead me to believe he was at school, however in 1867 when he married his first wife he signed his marriage certificate with an'x', so not even able to sign his name.

With regards an estrangement there may be some truth in this if this is his family.

This Thomas died in 1878

Name: Thomas Burns
Death Date: 18 Feb 1878
Death Place: Cumberland, England
Probate Date: 27 Mar 1878
Registry: Carlisle

Occupation:- Joiner
Late of Lorton
Executors:- sons Joseph and Richard, both of Lorton Joiners

so he had died by 1881

Could be of course that son Thomas was estranged from the family so just put down what he thought on the marriage record. Maybe he had some sort of problem with the family and that's why he left to live on the East coast, but that of course is just a theory??

Cumberland family in 1871

Name: Thomas Burns
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Burns
Gender: Male
Where born: Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: Lorton
Ecclesiastical parish: Lorton
Town: Lorton
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Registration district: Cockermouth
Sub-registration district: Cockermouth
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Household schedule number: 17
Piece: 5239
Folio: 27
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Burns 65 - Occupation:- Master Joiner
Mary Burns 60
Joseph Burns 21
Richard Burns 19

In 1861 Thomas Snr. is noted as Master Carwright and here in 1871 he gives his occupation as Master Joiner, so I'm not sure why his son Thomas would give his father's occupation as a Labourer on his marriage certificate?

maybe the 1911 census for birthplace is correct as thomas filled in and signed that census.
The first marriage records parish of residence at the time not place of birth

???
Thomas
Last name Burns
Gender Male
Birth year -
Birth place -
Baptism year 1843
Baptism date 24 Sep 1843
Place Dean
County Cumberland
Country England
Father's first name(s) Thomas
Father's last name Burns
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name -
Record set England Births & Baptisms 1538-1975
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain

1851
1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Dean Scales, Dean, Cockermouth, Cumberland, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Burns Head Married Male 45 1806 Farmer (40 Acres Employin 1 Labourer) Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
Mary Burns Wife Married Female 41 1810 Farmer's Wife Loweswater, Cumberland, England
Sarah Burns Daughter Unmarried Female 20 1831 Farmer's Daur Loweswater, Cumberland, England
James Burns Son - Male 13 1838 Farmer's Son Loweswater, Cumberland, England
John Burns Son - Male 10 1841 Scholar Dean, Cumberland, England
Thomas Burns Son - Male 7 1844 Scholar Dean, Cumberland, England
Mary Ann Burns Daughter - Female 4 1847 - Dean, Cumberland, England
Joseph Burns Son - Male 1 1850 - Dean, Cumberland, England

Thomas
Last name Burns
Name note -
Marriage year 1829
Marriage date 12 Sep 1829
Marriage place Loweswater
Spouse's first name(s) Mary
Spouse's last name Clark
County Cumberland
Country England
Record set England Marriages 1538-1973
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

Thomas father was down as a 'labourer' it did not state he was deceased in the second marriage cert of 1881.

Thanks for all help.

Name: Thomas Burns
Gender: Male
Age: 23
Birth Date: 1844
Marriage Date: 25 Nov 1867
Marriage Place: Whitby, York, England
Spouse: Susan Jane Harland
FHL Film Number: 1470665

..............what was Thomas' father's occuption on the marriage certificate?

If Cumberland census are correct then this would probably be his birth

BURNS, THOMAS CLARK Order
GRO Reference: 1843 S Quarter in COCKERMOUTH Volume 25 Page 118

MMN :- Clark

......................................

Thomas Burns
mentioned in the record of Thomas Burns and Mary Clark
Name Thomas Burns
Spouse's Name Mary Clark
Event Date 12 Sep 1829
Event Place Loweswater,Cumberland,England
........................................

William Burns
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 13 October 1833 LOWESWATER, CUMBERLAND, ENGLAND
father: Thomas Burns
mother: Mary

Sarah Burns
England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975
christening: 13 March 1831 LOWESWATER, CUMBERLAND, ENGLAND
father: Thomas Burns
mother: Mary
................................
BURNS, JAMES CLARK Order
GRO Reference: 1837 S Quarter in COCKERMOUTH Volume 25 Page 51
BURNS, JOHN CLARK Order
GRO Reference: 1840 J Quarter in COCKERMOUTH Volume 25 Page 81
BURNS, MARY ANN CLARK Order
GRO Reference: 1846 S Quarter in COCKERMOUTH Volume 25 Page 107
BURNS, JOSEPH CLARK Order
GRO Reference: 1849 J Quarter in COCKERMOUTH Volume 25 Page 123
BURNS, RICHARD CLARK Order
GRO Reference: 1852 J Quarter in COCKERMOUTH Volume 10B Page 426

1861 ????
Name: Thomas Burns
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: 1844
Relation: Son
Father's name: Thomas Burns
Mother's name: Mary Burns
Gender: Male
Where born: Dranscales, Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: Lorton
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation: Apprentice

Registration district: Cockermouth
Sub-registration district: Cockermouth
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 28
Piece: 3934
Folio: 62
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Burns 55 - Master Cartwright employing 1 man
Mary Burns 50
Thomas Burns 17
Joseph Burns 11
Richard Burns 9


1851
Name: Thomas Burns
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1844
Relation: Son
Father's name: Thomas Burns
Mother's name: Mary Burns
Gender: Male
Where born: Dean, Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: Dean
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: Cockermouth
Sub-registration district: Workington
ED, institution, or vessel: 11b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 20
Piece: 2435
Folio: 315
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Burns 45
Mary Burns 41
Sarah Burns 20
James Burns 13
John Burns 10
Thomas Burns 7
Mary Ann Burns 4
Joseph Burns 1
.........................................

1841
Name: Thomas Burns
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Gender: Male
Where born: Cumberland, England
Civil Parish: Dean
Hundred: Allerdale above Derwent
County/Island: Cumberland
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
Registration district: Cockermouth
Sub-registration district: Cockermouth
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 156
Book: 10
Folio: 7
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Burns 35
Mary Burns 30
Sarah Burns 10
James Burns 3
William Burns 7
John Burns 1

1881
Name: Thomas Burns
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relationship to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Danby, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Fylingdales
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Marital Status: Widower
Occupation: Farmer Of 7 Acres
Registration district: Whitby
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4836
Folio: 86
Page Number: 19
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Burns 39
Hannah My. Burns 11
John Harland Burns 9
Richard H. Burns 7
Sarah Ann Burns 5
George Burns 2
Margaret J. Burns 2
Hannah Wedgewood 24

The 1881 census says he is from Danby, Yorkshire:-

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
?, Fylingdales, Whitby, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (North Riding), England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Birth place Occupation

Thomas Burns Head Widower Male 39 1842 Danby, Yorkshire, England Farmer Of 7 Acres
Hannah My Burns Daughter Single Female 11 1870 Yorkshire, England Scholar
John Harland Burns Son Single Male 9 1872 Yorkshire, England Scholar
Richard H Burns Son Single Male 7 1874 Yorkshire, England Scholar
Sarah Ann Burns Daughter Single Female 5 1876 Yorkshire, England -
George Burns Son Single Male 2 1879 Yorkshire, England
Margaret J Burns Daughter Single Female 2 1879 Yorkshire, England
Hannah Wedgewood Servant Single Female 24 1857 Egton, Yorkshire, England Housekeeper

Kath. x

????

Record Transcription:
1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Skerry Hall, Fylingdales, Whitby, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (North Riding), England

Thomas Burn's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Burn Head - Male 27 1844 - Yorkshire, England
Sarah J Burn Wife - Female 30 1841 - Yorkshire, England
Thomas Burn Son - Male 2 1869 - Yorkshire, England
Hannah M Burn Daughter - Female 1 1870 - Yorkshire, England

thomas is from castleton

Thomas Burns
England and Wales Census, 1911





Name: Thomas Burns
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Event Place: Fylingdales, Raw Robin Hood S Bay Yorkshire, Yorkshire (North Riding), England
County: Yorkshire (North Riding)
Parish: Fylingdales
Sub-District: Whitby
Registration District: Whitby
Gender: Male
Age: 68
Marital Status: MARRIED
Occupation: FARMER
Birth Year (Estimated): 1843
Birthplace: Northumberland
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Line: 1
Page: 1
Years of Marriage: 31
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Burns Head Male 68 Northumberland
Hannah Burns Wife Female 55 Shortwaite, Yorkshire
Lucy Burns Daughter Female 30 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
Matthew Burns Son Male 19 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
William Burns Son Male 15 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
Mary Wedgewood Visitor Female 68 Shortwaite, Yorkshire

County: Yorkshire (North Riding)
Civil Parish: Fylingdales
Ecclesiastical Parish: St Stephens
Sub-District: Whitby
Registration District: Whitby
Residence Note: Raw
Gender: Male
Age: 57
Occupation: FARMER
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birth Year (Estimated): 1844
Birthplace: Fylingdales, Yorkshire
Schedule Type: 67
Page Number: 13
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Burns Head Male 57 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
Hannah Burns Wife Female 46 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
George Burns Son Male 22 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
Lucy Burns Daughter Female 20 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
Matthew Burns Son Male 9 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
Annie Burns Daughter Female 7 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
William Burns Son Male 5 Fylingdales, Yorkshire
James Burns Son Male 3 Fylingdales, Yorkshire

Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1891
County: Yorkshire, Yorkshire (North Riding)
Parish: Fylingdales
Ecclesiastical Parish: ST STEPHEN
Registration District: Whitby
Residence Note: Raw
Gender: Male
Age: 48
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Farmer
Relationship to Head of Household: Head
Birth Year (Estimated): 1843
Birthplace: Yorkshire, England
Page Number: 4
Registration Number: RG12
Piece/Folio: 3995/ 184
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Thomas Burns Head Male 48 Yorkshire, England
Hannah Burns Wife Female 36 Yorkshire, England
Margaret Burns Daughter Female 12 Yorkshire, England
Susan Burns Daughter Female 10 Yorkshire, England
Lucy Burns Daughter Female 10 Yorkshire, England
Isaac Burns Son Male 8 Yorkshire, England
Jacob Burns Son Male 8 Yorkshire, England
Alice Burns Daughter Female 6 Fylingdales, Yorkshire, England
Robert Burns Son Male 4 Yorkshire, England

????

Record Transcription:
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Tram Mire, Roxby Village, Roxby, Whitby, Yorkshire & Yorkshire (North Riding), England

Thomas Barns's Household Members
Members that resided in the household at the time of the census.
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Thomas Watson Head Married Male 64 1797 Farmer Of 145 Acres Yorkshire, England
Dinah Watson Wife Married Female 56 1805 - Danby, Yorkshire, England
John Watson Son Unmarried Male 27 1834 Farmers Son Roxby, Yorkshire, England
Michel Watson Son Unmarried Male 17 1844 Farmers Son Roxby, Yorkshire, England
Mary Watson Daughter Unmarried Female 25 1836 Farmers Daughter Roxby, Yorkshire, England
Ann Watson Daughter Unmarried Female 23 1838 Farmers Daughter Roxby, Yorkshire, England
Thomas Barns Servant Unmarried Male 17 1844 Farmers Servant Ireland xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sarah Watson Daughter Unmarried Female 20 1841 Farmers Daughter Roxby, Yorkshire, England
William Trousdale Servant - Male 13 1848 Farmers Servant Danby, Yorkshire, England
Elizabeth Watson Daughter - Female 4 1857 Scholar Roxby, Yorkshire, England
Robert Sandy Lodger Married Male 38 1823 Farmer Driffield, Yorkshire, England
John Sandy Lodger Married Male 40 1821 Farmer Driffield, Yorkshire, England

on 1867 marriage cert thomas is a farm servant

Welcome to the boards, Heather.

A tree on Ancestry says he was born 1844 in Danby, Yorkshire.
It says his mother was Mary Clark, born 11/11/1810 in Loweswater, Cumberland.
Birth
11th Nov 1810 • Loweswater, Cumberland, England

Marriage
12 Sep 1829 • 1660168, Cumberland, England
Thomas Burns
(1805–1878)

Birth of Daughter Sarah Burns(1831–1905)
1831 • Loweswater, Cumberland, England


Birth of Son James Burns(1837–)
26 Jul 1837 • Loweswater, Cumberland, England

Birth of Son John Burns(1841–1909)
1841 • Deanscales, Cumberland, England

Birth of Son Thomas Burns(1844–1918)
1844 • Danby, Yorkshire, England

Birth of Daughter Mary Ann Burns(1847–)
1847 • Dean, Cumberland, England

Birth of Son Richard Burns(1852–1891)
Apr 1852 • Deanscales, Cumberland, England

Death of Husband Thomas Burns(1805–1878)
18 Feb 1878 • Lorton, Cockermouth, Cumberland, England

Death of Son Richard Burns(1852–1891)
1891

Death
April 1901 • Cockermouth, Cumberland


The tree says Thomas (father) was born Feb 1810 in Whitehaven, Cumberland, and died 18/02/1878 in Lorton, Cockermouth.


I haven't checked any of this myself, and a lot of it is unproved on the tree.
Much of the older info seems to be taken from other trees, so it's suspect until checked out.

Thomas was my 1 x gr grandfather. He was married twice, to Susan Jane Harland b 1840 - d 1880 (8 children) and Hannah Wedgwood b 1855- d 1933 (9 children including a stillbirth). From his marriage certificates I have noted his father was also called Thomas but that is it, a total brick wall!!