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Was this a second child of Daniel Moss Pattle and Elizabeth Darby? Remember Daniel had a brother named Alexander.

I didn't find a baptism.

Name: Alexander Pattle
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 13 Sep 1795
Burial Place: Badwell Ash, Suffolk
Father: Daniel Pattle
Mother: Elizabeth
FHL Film Number: 887399

The sisters of Harriet Pattle who married William Chinery, and her brother Daniel Moss Pattle
( I had focussed totally on their brothers before, hoping to find a father for Edwin Chenery)

First name(s) Mary
Last name Pattle
Birth year 1770
Baptism year 1770
Baptism date 16 Feb 1770
Place Walsham-Le-Willows
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Mother's first name(s) Mary (B. Dec 25 1769)
Relationship Dau Of
Parents Daniel & Mary (b. Dec 25 1769)
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 1)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 4)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Pattle
Baptism year 1773
Relationship Dau
County Suffolk
Country England
Place Walsham Le Willows
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Baptism date 29 Jan 1773
Parish St Mary
Residence -
Notes
bn 25 Oct 1772
Entry No 8/30
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
Collections from England, Great Britain

Just topping and tailing Elizabeth, even though she is not a blood relative of Edwin Chinery.

This is likely to be Elizabeth's burial in 1862:

First name(s) Elizabeth
Last name Pattle
Age 90
Birth year 1772
Death year 1862
Burial year 1862
Burial date 26 Jul 1862
Church St Peter
Denomination Anglican
Place Monk Soham
County Suffolk
Country England
Record set National Burial Index For England & Wales
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Burials

Can't find her in census 1861.

She is born c1774 in census 1841, and c1773 in Monk Soton in 1851.

This might be her baptism:

Name Elizabeth Darby
Gender Female
Christening Date 23 Jan 1773
Christening Date (Original) 23 JAN 1773
Christening Place MONK SOHAM,SUFFOLK,ENGLAND
Father's Name Samuel Darby
Mother's Name Elizabeth

Hi Christine, I think it was a shotgun marriage as it was 16th July 1793, and son Daniel was baptised 23rd Feb 1794 - we don't know his actual birthday.

Pity there are no earlier censuses. Daniel was resident in Elmswell as early as 1790, and still there in 1798, yet his son was baptised in Monk Soham, so Elizabeth & Daniel possibly separated very early in their marriage.

Proprietor: Reverend Mr Walker
Tenant: Daniel Pattle
Residence: Elmswell, Suffolk, England
Year: 1798
Volume: 1

Yes, Christina, that's what I thought, going by the marriage of Sarah Doe and Daniel Pattle in 1818.

Also, there is sister in law ( to Robert Porter) Mary Pattle, in the 1861 census, presumably Betsey's sister, who was born c1839 Norfolk, which ties in better with Daniel and Sarah being the parents of her and Betsey/ Elizabeth. The middle name Darby and occupation of farmer helps tie them in with Elizabeth Pattle nee Darby, [estranged?] wife of Daniel Moss Pattle.

Maybe Elizabeth Darby Pattle (Betsy) is the granddaughter of Daniel & Elizabeth, daughter of their son Daniel. That would make Anna the great granddaughter of Elizabeth???

Not finding any other of Daniel Pattle and Mary Moss's sons in the military, though records are a bit hit and miss then.

There is this bit of a pickle relatiing to a child of Elizabeth and Daniel's?

The parents of grand daughter Anna Porter with Elizabeth in census 1851 seem to be Betsey Pattle and Robert Porter.

The couple in 1861:

Note they have a Mary Pattle with them.

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Swan Inn, Cretingham Road, Bosmere, Suffolk, England

Robert Porter Head Married Male 46 1815 Inn Keeper Cretingham, Suffolk, England
>>>>Betsey Porter Wife Married Female 41 1820 - Treborough, Norfolk, England
Samuel Porter Son Unmarried Male 15 1846 - Ashfield, Suffolk, England
Elizabeth Porter Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1848 - Ashfield, Suffolk, England
Isabell Porter Daughter - Female 11 1850 - Ashfield, Suffolk, England
Elen Porter Daughter - Female 6 1855 - Ashfield
Mary Pattle Sister In Law - Female 22 1839 - Norfolk, England
John Watting Lodger Widower Male 70 1791 Dealer Ashfield, Suffolk, England

Note the birthplace given for Betsey. looks more like Tamsborough on the image

There is this baptism for an Elizabeth Darby Pattle in Norfolk, at Tasburgh in 1819, who might be Betsy.

Name: Elizabeth Darby Pattle
Birth Date: Abt 1819
Baptism Date: 9 Apr 1819
Baptism Place: Tasburgh, Norfolk, England
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Map:
View this parish
Father: Daniel Pattle
Mother: Sarah Pattle <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Has Elizabeth's maiden name of Darby as a second forename, but mother is recorded as SARAH. Also occupation of parent is Farmer, which was Elizabeth's occupation by 1840, not Daniel's as far as we know.

Maybe the child of Elizabeth and Daniel's son, Daniel baptised 1794 at Monk Soton?

Marriage? Birth year a little out.

Name: Daniel Pattle
Gender: Male
Age: 21
Birth Date: 1797
Marriage Date: 22 Aug 1818
Marriage Place: Norwich, Norfolk, England
Spouse: Sarah Doe<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
FHL Film Number: 1595885
Reference ID: item 1

Wow this is really interesting and I need to spend some time reading it properly. I had a thought last night that if Edwin was illigitamate then Pattle could be a family name. So defiantly makes a lot of sense. Really interesting as Maria (alone and with Edwin) have a load of illegitimate children. George William Goode (where I started) has no father on his birth cert but lists George Goode on his marriage cert. I assume this George Goode is actually the name of his grandfather Maria’s father. Certificates on on my tree again if interested. This upbringing of Edwin might explain his drunken and riotous behaviour. I love the article where he is threatening his wife with the knife because she drank all his beer. Anyway I digress. I am looking forward to looking at it properly but makes a sound theory. I defiantly have another marriage at Walsham le willow just cannot place it in my mind right now. Hope you are getting some sleep.

Going back to Daniel's documents from the military, it confirms he was Pattle, Daniel Moss, son of Daniel and Mary Pattle Jan 24th 1766. (certified wriiten copy of the baptism entry)

It includes a written copy of his marriage register entry to Elizabeth Darby, and a written copy of his death cert.

The death cert copy says died 21st Aug 1846, aged 80 years , Gent, cause of death debility 6 months, certified. Informant Ann Goddard in attendance.

Child of Daniel Moss Pattle and Elizabeth

Name Daniel Pattle
Gender Male
Christening Date 23 Feb 1794
Christening Date (Original) 23 FEB 1794
Christening Place MONK SOHAM,SUFFOLK,ENGLAND
Birth Date 13 Feb 1794
Father's Name Daniel Pattle<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mother's Name Elizth. Darby<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

On reflection, I think this is Elizabeth Pattle nee Darby in the census, as her address when applying for the pension was 'Ashfield with Thorpe'.

So the couple were living separately by 1841.

1841:

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Ashfield Hall, Ashfield with Thorpe, Bosmere & Claydon, Suffolk, England

First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Elizabeth Pattle Female 67 1774 Suffolk, England
Charles Read Male 22 1819 Suffolk, England
Louisa Shepherd Female 20 1821 Suffolk, England

Elizabeth is recorded as a farmer.

and as a widow in 1851:

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Hill Farm, Ashfield cum Thorpe, Bosmere, Suffolk, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Elizabeth Pattle Head Widow Female 78 1773 Farm 60 Acres 4 Labourers Monk Soham, Suffolk, England
Charlotte Moss Servant Unmarried Female 20 1831 House Serv Cretingham, Suffolk, England
William James Servant Unmarried Male 14 1837 House Serv Walberswick, Suffolk, England
Anna Porter Grand Daughter - Female 8 1843 - Ashfield, Suffolk, England

If Anna Porter is her grand daughter, I guess Elizabeth and Daniel Moss Pattle must have had at least one child.

Speculation?

Marriages Jun 1840
BENNETT Emma Bosmere 12 441
GOODWIN William Bosmere 12 441
PATTLE Betsy Bosmere &c. 12 441 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
PORTER Robert Bosmere &c 12 441 <<<<<<<<<<<<<

In same location as Elizabeth was in 1841:

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Ashfield Hall, Ashfield with Thorpe, Bosmere & Claydon, Suffolk, England

First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Robert Porter Male 24 1817 Suffolk, England
>>>Betsy Porter Female 22 1819 -
Robert Porter Male 0 1841 Suffolk, England

Daniel in 1841. His occupation is 'Warrant Officer'.

1841 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Rectory, Elmswell, Stow, Suffolk, England
.
First name(s) Last name Sex Age Birth year Birth place
Daniel Pattle Male 75 1766 Suffolk, England
Rose Markelle Female 70 1771 Suffolk, England

I can't identify his wife Elizabeth in the 1841 census, though obviously she was alive, to be able to pursue a pension after his death in 1846...

Not finding any children born to Daniel Moss Pattle and Elizabeth Darby in Suffolk, though they may have moved around because of his military service.

Guess what?????

DANIEL MOSS PATTLE WAS A SOLDIER!!!!

And a married one....

Widow Elizabeth chases a pension...

First name(s) Daniel Moss
Last name Pattle
Birth year -
Age at entrance -
Regiment -
Death year 1846
Death date 21 Aug 1846<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Death place Elmswell, Suffolk
Marriage year 1793
Marriage date 16 Jul 1793<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Marriage place Monk Soham
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's last name Pattle<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Archive The National Archives
Archive reference WO 42/37
Piece description Officers' Birth Certificates, Wills & Personal Papers. British Officers & their families. P. 1-154.
Piece date range 1776-1881
Record set British Army Officers' Widows' Pension Forms 1755-1908<<<<<<
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Regimental & Service Records

Image says he was Daniel Moss Pattle late of Elswell, an [illegible] master on half pay of Norfolk Fensible Cavalry.

MARRIAGE:

First name(s) Daniel
Last name Pattle
Gender Male
Marriage year 1793
Marriage date 16 Jul 1793
Place Monk Soham
Parish original Elmswell
Church St Peter
Spouse's first name(s) Elizabeth
Spouse's last name Darby
Spouse parish -
County Suffolk
Country England
Record set Suffolk Marriage Index
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

So not in a position to marry Ann Chinery, but he was the brother of Harriet Prattle who married William Chinery.

So is he 'Prattle Chinery' soldier father of Edwin Chinery? Might he also be the father of Alfred Moss Chinery, and possibly others of Ann's illegitimate brood?

First name(s) Daniel Moss
Last name Pattle
Age 81
Birth year 1765<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Death year 1846
Burial year 1846
Burial date 28 Aug 1846<<<<<<<<<<<
Church St Mary
Denomination Anglican
Place Badwell Ash
County Suffolk
Country England

Not sure if this has been posted, apologies if it has...

Christine posted a baptism on page 2 for Ann Chinery.

Name: Ann Chinery
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 26 Sep 1784
Baptism Place: Drinkstone, Suffolk, England
Father: Isaac Chinery
Mother: Margaret Chinery
FHL Film Number: 887395

This may be the marriage of the parents, Isaac and Margaret:

First name(s) Isaac<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name Chinery<<<<<<<<<<<<
Marriage year 1779
Marriage date 29 Jul 1779
Marriage place Bradfield St George
Spouse's first name(s) Margaret<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's last name Cooper<<<<<<<<<<<
Groom's marital status wdr
Groom's parish Drinkstone<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
County Suffolk
Country England
Record set Suffolk Marriage Index
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

Note Isaac is a widower.

I believe this is the marriage of Daniel and Mary, parents of the Prattle children in the previous post.

First name(s) Daniel
Last name Pattle
Marriage year 1764
Marriage date 20 Sep 1764
Marriage place Badwell Ash
Spouse's first name(s) Mary<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's last name Moss<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Groom's parish Walsham le Willow
County Suffolk
Country England
Record set Suffolk Marriage Index
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

Given the fact that Daniel and Mary name at least one of their children with the middle name Moss, and given that spinster Ann Chenery calls one of her sons Alfred Moss, and that Daniel and Mary's daur Harriet married William Chinery, I strongly suspect that Daniel Prattle and Mary Moss could well be grandparents to Edwin Chinery, and maybe some or all of his siblings.

Of course I can't prove it, it's purely speculative based on circumstantial evidence.

What do you think, Susan?

Speculating again.....

Note that one of Ann's sons baptised 1817 was Alfred MOSS Chenery.

I think this is the baptism of Harriet Pattle who married William Chinery 1801/2. Walsham le Willows is about 3 miles from Gt Ashfield, where Harriet and William were married:

Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 4)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
First name(s) Harriet<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name Pattle<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism year 1778
Relationship Dau
County Suffolk
Country England
Place Walsham Le Willows
Mother's first name(s) Mary<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) Daniel<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism date 06 Aug 1778
Parish St Mary
Residence -
Notes
bn 27 Mar
Entry No 11/28
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

I then looked for siblings.....and found Daniel MOSS Pattle

Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 4)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
First name(s) Daniel Moss<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name Pattle<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism year 1766
Relationship Son
County Suffolk
Country England
Place Walsham Le Willows
Mother's first name(s) Mary <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) Daniel<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism date 24 Jan 1766
Parish St Mary
Residence -
Entry No 5/6

OTHER BROTHERS:

Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 4)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
First name(s) Robert
Last name Pattle
Baptism year 1767
Relationship Son
County Suffolk
Country England
Place Walsham Le Willows
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Baptism date 02 Feb 1767
Parish St Mary
Residence -
Notes
bn Dec 1766
Entry No 5/25
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records


Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 4)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
First name(s) Alexander
Last name Pattle
Baptism year 1770
Relationship Son
County Suffolk
Country England
Place Walsham Le Willows
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Baptism date 16 Feb 1770
Parish St Mary
Residence -
Notes
bn 10 Jan 1763
Entry No 7/6
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

First name(s) Charles
Last name Pattle
Birth year 1780
Baptism year 1780
Baptism date 05 Sep 1780
Place Walsham-Le-Willows
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Relationship Son Of
Parents Daniel & Mary
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 1)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911

First name(s) William
Last name Pattle
Birth year 1772
Baptism year 1772
Baptism date 31 Jan 1772
Place Walsham-Le-Willows
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Mother's first name(s) Mary (B. Sep 24 1771)
Relationship Son Of
Parents Daniel & Mary (b. Sep 24 1771)
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 1)

and another William:

First name(s) William
Last name Pattle
Birth year 1778
Baptism year 1778
Baptism date 06 Aug 1778
Place Walsham-Le-Willows
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Mother's first name(s) Mary (B.Nov 10 1776)
Relationship Son Of
Parents Daniel & Mary (b.Nov 10 1776)
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 1)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911

Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 4)
Record set Suffolk Baptism Index 1538-1911
First name(s) Zachariah
Last name Pattle
Baptism year 1776
Relationship Son
County Suffolk
Country England
Place Walsham Le Willows
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Father's first name(s) Daniel
Baptism date 26 Jan 1776
Parish St Mary
Residence -
Entry No 10/11

Ann Chinery seems to have been at bit of a lass, and had a whole batch of children, including Edwin, all baptised on the same date, 6 Nov 1817, so their birthdates must vary a bit (there was no image of Edwin's baptism, so I've only just spotted this):

Note Ann is a sp (spinster)

First name(s) Edwin
Last name Chenery
Birth year 1817
Baptism year 1817
Baptism date 06 Nov 1817
Parish Woolpit, St Mary
Place Woolpit
Relationship Son
Father's first name(s) -
Mothers first name(s) Ann
Residence Woolpit
Notes
sp
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

First name(s) Alfred Moss<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name Chenery<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth year 1817
Baptism year 1817
Baptism date 06 Nov 1817
Parish Woolpit, St Mary
Place Woolpit
Relationship Son
Father's first name(s) -
Mothers first name(s) Ann
Residence Woolpit
Notes
sp
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

First name(s) Barnard Peregrine
Last name Chenery
Birth year 1817
Baptism year 1817
Baptism date 06 Nov 1817
Parish Woolpit, St Mary
Place Woolpit
Relationship Son
Father's first name(s) -
Mothers first name(s) Ann
Residence Woolpit
Notes
sp
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

First name(s) Julia
Last name Chenery
Birth year 1817
Baptism year 1817
Baptism date 06 Nov 1817
Parish Woolpit, St Mary
Place Woolpit
Relationship Daughter
Father's first name(s) -
Mothers first name(s) Ann
Residence Woolpit
Notes
sp
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

First name(s) William
Last name Chenery
Birth year 1817
Baptism year 1817
Baptism date 06 Nov 1817
Parish Woolpit, St Mary
Place Woolpit
Relationship Son
Father's first name(s) -
Mothers first name(s) Ann
Residence Woolpit
Notes
sp
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

I am seriously beginning to believe that Christine has the right baptism, with unmarried Ann as mother, and that there is a possibility Edwin's birth Father was a Pattle, but not finding a way to prove it. The father remains speculation.

Did Edwin/Edward name his daur Julia after his sister Julia?

Back to that fantasy/speculation....

Christine posted a possible baptism for single mother Ann Chinery at Drinkstone, daur of Isaac and Margaret.:

First name(s) Ann
Last name Chinery
Birth year 1784
Baptism year 1784
Baptism date 26 Sep 1784
Parish Drinkstone, All Saints
Place Drinkstone
Relationship Daughter
Father's first name(s) Isaac
Mothers first name(s) Margaret
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

Now the couple did just happen to have a son named William:

First name(s) William
Last name Chinery
Birth year 1780
Baptism year 1780
Baptism date 08 Jul 1780
Parish Drinkstone, All Saints
Place Drinkstone
Relationship Son
Father's first name(s) Isaac
Mothers first name(s) Margaret
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

EDIT: and another....

First name(s) William
Last name Chinery
Birth year 1782
Baptism year 1782
Baptism date 21 Apr 1782
Parish Drinkstone, All Saints
Place Drinkstone
Relationship Son
Father's first name(s) Isaac
Mothers first name(s) Margaret
County Suffolk
Country England
Source Suffolk Baptism Index (Part 3)

Now is he the William Chinery who married Harriet Pattle, and if so, did his sister Ann get romantically involved with a member of her sister in law's family?

Ann was born c1786 according to the 1841 census Erika posted on page 1, but age of adults was rounded down to nearest 5 years for adults. She was born c1784 according to the 1851 census also posted by Erika:

1841
High Street, Woolpit, Stow, Suffolk, England

Thomas Burroughs Male 40 1801 Suffolk, England
Edmund Chinery Male 25 1816 Suffolk, England
Ann Chinery Female 55 1786 Suffolk, England


Total speculation at the moment!!!

Not sure if has any relevance at all. Great Ashfield is about 4 miles from Woolpit.

First name(s) Harriet<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name Pattle<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Marriage year 1801
Marriage date 08 Dec 1801<<<<<<<<<<<<
Marriage place Ashfield Gt
Spouse's first name(s) William<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Spouse's last name Chinery<<<<<<<<<<<<<
County Suffolk
Country England
Record set Suffolk Marriage Index
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

Marriage much too late to produce a son called Pattle after his mother, who would be old enough to father Edwin/Edward.

Two ceremonies?

First name(s) Harriet
Last name Pattle
Marriage year 1802
Marriage date 09 Mar 1802<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Marriage place Ashfield Gt
Spouse's first name(s) William
Spouse's last name Chinery
County Suffolk
Country England
Record set Suffolk Marriage Index
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Parish Marriages
Collections from England, Great Britain

Fantasizing/Speculating, did William have a sister, maybe even one named Ann, who then had a liason out of marriage with one of his wife Harriet's Pattle kin?