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3 Holland Place is where Charles's widow and children were living in 1881 - so if he did die before Thomas H married, then it's a clerical error on the ER side to show him there in 1887.

Not sure how the ER works - if Elizabeth hadn't notified them of his death, maybe that would account for it?

It will (maybe) definitely be him at that address in 1875 - unless he'd died earlier and it's another mistake..

For what it's worth, the 1877 death of Thomas Povey is the only male Povey death in the right area and time frame.


So far, I can't see a birth record for Willie with mms Wildin, or for May/Mary with mms fitting any later marriage of any Charles or Thomas Povey.

I have found the Certificate I purchased for Thomas Henry Povey's birth with mmn Eliza Povey formerly Wildin. That shows 12th August 1855 Mill Lane, Eton registered the 12th September, 1855.
This information was found by Chris Ho 2014 and following that I located a Baptism for Elizabeth Wilkin 1824 Northumberland.
I have Thomas Henry's Death Cert 13th September 1884 Aged 26 years, which fits in with him being on the 1881 Census. He was a house painter on my grandfather's birth certificate. T.H. father is showing as Builder and Carpenter.
I followed through with those people who had Eliza Wilkin in their trees but none came through as a match so cannot confirm as T.H mother.

Think I shall have to go through everything again and see if I missed anything.

Thanks so much for your input.
Ru

There is this baptism of an Eliza Wildin baptised in St Andrews

See the 1851 census posted earlier:

"Eliza Povey
in the 1851 England Census
Name: Eliza Povey
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Thomas Povey
Gender: Female
Where born: St Andrews, London, England (not Portsea as in 1871)<<<"

The year is earlier, as the register says born 15th Nov 1820

Name: Eliza Wildin
Gender: Female
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 25 Feb 1821
Baptism Place: St Andrew Holborn, City of London, England<<<<<<<<
Father: Thomas Wildin
Mother: Mary Wildin
Register Type: Parish Registers

The father is Thomas Wildin, not Henry as per the marriage register. However Thomas is a tailor, as was father Henry on the marriage register. Address is Dean St, Fetter Lane.

Interestingly, one of the witnesses at the wedding is a Thomas Wildin.

Thomas and Mary had two other children baptised at St Andrews:

William Samuel Wildin 17 Aug 1823 St Andrew Holborn City of London
Thomas
Mary

Henry Wildin 29 Sep 1829 St Andrew Holborn City of London Thomas
Mary

I am now getting confused - please forgive me.

I did think of the Eton Birth, but you see there was a problem with Eaton Middlesex and Eton Bucks.

Are we now saying that Thomas Povey and Eliza Povey are the St. Andrews family mentioned here and there was no birth in Eton, which is the line I believe I was following.

Still looking through the conversations and documents from 2014 - which is playing hvoc with my memory!!
Thank you for this and it is so appreciated, but needs my full attention to unravel.

Mistakes can cause so much of a problem an d need time to wade through.
Ru :-)

Sorry, please disregard my post, l hadn't realized the St Andrews family were eliminated. Didn't mean to muddy the waters.

Are they eliminated? I'm totally confused now!

[ By the way, my apologies for my mistake in adding "not Portsea as in 1871" to Eliza's birthplace in 1851 census - of course I was referring to Thomas, not Eliza.]


I think the Eton, Bucks birth is correct for Thomas Henry, as per 1871 census when he's definitely with father Charles T.

Also as in 1861, when it's probably him lodging in Windsor, and stated birthplace is Slough, just next to Eton.

Which makes the Eton 1855 birth the only possible one.

The service record with birthplace Eaton, Middlesex has been ruled out because of occupation - see other thread.
(Where's Eaton, Middlesex anyway? A Google search only brings up Eatons in Leicestershire, Cheshire, Norfolk, Nottinghamshire, Shropshire, Oxfordshire .The only Eaton I've heard of re London is Eaton Square.)

Re Brighton, there is no birth record of a Thomas Povey born anywhere in Sussex 1850-60. Nor any sign of the birth of a Charles or Thomas in Portsea or area around 1829.


The fact that Thomas and Eliza both originated in St Andrews doesn't rule out their son being born in Eton.

Thomas and Eliza's father's names/occupations are a bit of a problem, though.
Thomas's father is Thomas, a farmer. If he was born in St Andrews Holborn, could his father be a farmer ?
Different father's names for Eliza Wildin could be just a clerical error - and both were tailors.
She's not on any census with her father, unfortunately.

Possibly Eliza in 1841:

Eliza Weldin
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Eliza Weldin
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: St Marylebone
Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: St Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Rectory
Neighbors:
Piece: 680
Book: 9
Folio: 51
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
Verbrena Hettendorf 30
Veronica Hettendorf 3
Lionel Rivcell 20
Ellen Mudge 65
Elizabeth Huntly 35
Frank Hopkins 40
Charles Sadler 25
Eliza Weldin 20 - dressmaker
Harriet Malpas 20
Rhoda Stebbings 15


Parents & siblings in 1841:

Thomas Wilden
in the 1841 England Census
Name: Thomas Wilden
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Gender: Male
Civil Parish: St Andrew Holborn (Below The Bars)
Hundred: London Within the Walls
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address:
Occupation:
View image
Registration district: West London
Sub-registration district: London South West
Neighbors:
Piece: 724
Book: 2
Folio: 40
Page Number: 74
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Wilden 55 - tailor
Mary Wilden 55
William Wilden 15
Henry Wilden 12
George Barker 20
Sarah Barker 30

The Thomas, born Slough, in Windsor in 1861 with the Eatwells, isn't the one you're looking for.

He's still with them in Windsor in 1871, and married in 1879 as Thomas George Eatwell Povey - father Thomas Povey.

Maybe his birth:

POVEY, THOMAS - (no mms)
GRO Reference: 1857 J Quarter in ETON, BUCKS Volume 03A Page 351

Well many, many thanks ArgllGran,

You have certainly set it all out for me and now I am going to pursue the one I really thought was correct being the Eton match. It is the Wildin connection and I am now going down that way as you have provided more information. I am very grateful for all this and your time spent on this for me. Thanks so much.

Eton, Windsor are just down the road from Slough. The Eaton Middx. does (sorry did) seem to exist but it is difficult to trace. Again I got information on the place and it is in my files as it was another confusing bit of information.

Thank you again, all of you for your help and to you ArgrllGran for never giving up!!
Thanks so much
Ru

Of course, other discrepancies -

a) Thomas Henry's birthplace given as Brighton in 1881 census.

b) The fact that he was 26 at death in 1884, therefore (if correct) should have been born 1858, not 1855.

c) no marriage for Charles T and Elizabeth of Ripon.

d) no birth records for Thomas H's siblings Willie and May/Mary

Nothing's straightforward with this family!


Birth of sibling Charles (see 1881 census on page 1):

POVEY, CHARLES JOHN mms MALLABY
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in KENSINGTON Volume 01A Page 96

Elizabeth's birth:

Births Mar 1843 (>99%)
Mallaby Elizabeth Ripon 23 493

Kucinta
Meant to say that as this has been a difficult search and the years I have been searching (having given up as a closed door) you cannot feel anything but praise for effort - you did not muddy the waters, nor did you confuse me - it is I who was confused and thus needed to lay it all out.
Every name and mention was a possibility as we came forward and went back.

Thank you for your continued support.
Ru

ArgryllGran

Just wish to add that your comments re discrepancies is coming to make for confusion and now we are getting these census together this is really making sense.

I guess the census information you have was found on another site and not Genes, which makes it hard on me using this site. You see I also went down the road of the 'nephew' at the pub with his uncle, but go no-where.

I am a stickler for the confirmation of relatives after finding my great grandmother b 1860 named Amy and her niece b 1860 to an unmarried sister caused no end of work to unravel those who were family coming forward and were not my line at all. Adding to and removing from my tree gave me a huge headache!!

I hope to get this sorted this week and get back to you all. In between I see the Wildin family trees on Genes all have the 'g' and/ or 'en' - I just think I must keep focussed on my direct line.

What is your main search site? (or have I asked this before).
Thank you again
Ru

ErikaH,

Once again I have missed not responding to your comments re the dob of Thomas Henry Povey. I was also working on the years of 1856-1858 due to the ages on his Marriage Cert to my great grandmother Eleanor Daniels and his death Certificate all of which I have in my files.

Thank you.
Ru

Ru -
generally speaking, the helpers on GR don't use GR for research.


The main free sites are:

FamilySearch - which doesn't have everything, but is often good for older parish records (pre 1837); also has censuses. Just make sure you search "Records" and not "Family Tree" or "Genealogies". The records are actual records, whereas the others are what users have entered, and may not be accurate.

FreeBMD. - births, marriages & deaths 1837 until approx. 1983-ish - England and Wales only.

GRO website - births 1837 -1917 - a godsend for finding out mothers' maiden surnames. Website also has deaths 1837 - 1957 - and gives age at death.

We also have subs to either Ancestry or FindMyPast (aka FMP).

For Scottish records (which probably don't interest you) , Scotlands People is the main site. You have to buy credits - there's no sub system, unfortunately.
Many Scottish records are also on Ancestry, FMP, FamilySearch, but the 1911 census (Scotland) is only on ScotlandsPeople.


There are lots of other useful sites, some specific to particular geographical areas, but those are the main ones.

Hi there, just looking in before I head off to bed. Thank you for this information. I must get onto these sites. I have joined so many, but see most of the members recommend these sites.

I have spent a lot of time and finances on joining different site especially for my Russia and Baltic States searches. I have come as far as I can with these at present unless some finds me!

The Povey family are on my mum's side and as her father was the only child of T.H. and Eleanor Daniels, I have no family help with the search.

Thanks you for your interest and your advice on the sites you use. I need to take stock of these sites for researching.

Thank you. Now for my bed - its been a long day.

Ru

Back again,
Searching through the notes and returning to compare with Census, I am on another re-visit:

This is the Brighton Sussex one I think I mentioned as Thomas Povey living with his uncle at the "PUB" stating birth place Brighton, Sussex. the birth year would fit with some of the information, but I keep thinking there is no further information to confirm this is him and no H (for Henry); any more information on this.

I am still going through all the information and my files - Povey family have prove difficult to prove. I am happy to send for certificates, but need to think they will prove to be correct.


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Household Information
Street Cheapside (Cross Keys)
Parish Brighton
Town
City Brighton
County Sussex
Country England
Ecclesiastical District
Enumeration District 35
Municipal Ward St Peter
Parliamentary Borough Brighton
Registration District Brighton
Category Census, Land & Surveys
Record set 1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census
Person 1
First Name Walter A
Last Name Locke
Birth Year 1865
Age 6
Birth Place England
Birth Town
Birth County Middlesex
Gender Male
Relationship To Head of Household Nephew
Occupation
Condition
Collections from Great Britain, England
Archive Reference RG10
Folio 81
Page 3
Piece Number 1081
Person 2
First Name Annie
Last Name Oran
Birth Year 1856
Age 15
Birth Place England
Birth Town
Birth County Sussex
Gender Female
Relationship To Head of Household Servant
Occupation
Condition
Collections from Great Britain, England
Archive Reference RG10
Folio 81
Page 3
Piece Number 1081
Person 3
First Name Thomas
Last Name Povey
Birth Year 1857
Age 14
Birth Place England
Birth Town
Birth County Hampshire
Gender Male
Relationship To Head of Household Nephew
Occupation
Condition
Collections from Great Britain, England
Archive Reference RG10
Folio 81
Page 3
Piece Number 1081
Person 4
First Name Ann
Last Name Ramsey
Birth Year 1819
Age 52
Birth Place England
Birth Town
Birth County Hampshire
Gender Female
Relationship To Head of Household Wife
Occupation
Condition
Collections from Great Britain, England
Archive Reference RG10
Folio 81
Page 3
Piece Number 1081
Person 5
First Name James
Last Name Ramsey
Birth Year 1816
Age 55
Birth Place England
Birth Town
Birth County Essex
Gender Male
Relationship To Head of Household Head
Occupation
Condition
Collections from Great Britain, England
Archive Reference RG10
Folio 81
Page 3
Piece Number 1081

I will now follow the Locke family for further connection to the Povey family.
Ru

This is Ancestry's version, as the layout is easier to make sense of:

(Already posted, I think, but putting it here again for ease.)

Thos Povey
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Thos Povey
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Hoock, Hampshire, England
Civil Parish: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Registration district: Brighton
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 35
Household schedule number: 19
Piece: 1081
Folio: 81
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
James Ransey 55 - Chelmsford [Ramsey]
Ann Ransey 52 - Chiddesden, Hants - wife
Thos Povey 14
Walter A Locke 6 - nephew, London
Annie Oran 15 - servant



Hook is not near Brighton in Sussex - it's north-east of Basingstoke in Hampshire, and well inland.

This is the only Walter A Locke birth which seems to fit with Walter in 1871:

LOCKE, WALTER ALEXANDER mms STROUD
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE Volume 01A Page 267


Parents' marriage:

Marriages Mar 1863 (>99%)
LOCKE Alexander Marylebone 1a 616
STROUD Hannah Marylebone 1a 616


Walter's on the1881 census, an apprentice (not with his family), and on 1891, 1901 and 1911 with his wife Jemima and children - no further clues to his ancestry.

Parents' marriage banns:

Hannah Stroud
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: Hannah Stroud
Gender: Female
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 22 Mar 1863
Marriage Place: Langham, Westminster, England
Father: Joseph Stroud - farmer, deceased.
Spouse: Alexander Locke - warehouseman
Register Type: Parish Register

Both of full age; bachelor and spinster.
Alexander's father - John Locke, carpenter


And a second marriage -

Hannah Locke
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1932
Name: Hannah Locke [ widow ]
[Hannah Stroud]
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 46
Record Type: Marriage
Birth Date: abt 1838
Marriage Date: 1 Oct 1884
Marriage Place: All Saints, Fulham, Hammersmith and Fulham, England
Father: Joseph Stroud, farmer, deceased
Spouse: Charles Pilcher, 58, widower, gardener
Register Type: Parish Register

Charles's father: William Pilcher, gardener, deceased.

The Ramseys in 1881:

James Ramsey
in the 1881 England Census
Name: James Ramsey
Age: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Ann Ramsey
Gender: Male
Where born: Springfield, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Street address: 5 Belmont St
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Publican "Unemployed"
Registration district: Brighton
Sub registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 44
Neighbors:
Piece: 1087
Folio: 56
Page Number: 8
Household Members:
Name Age
James Ramsey 65
Ann Ramsey 61



James Ramsay
in the 1861 England Census
Name: James Ramsay
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: 1816
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Ramsay
Gender: Male
Where born: Swingfield, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Brighton
Town: Brighton
County/Island: Sussex
Country: England
Registration district: Brighton
Sub-registration district: St Peter
ED, institution, or vessel: 27
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 155
Piece: 596
Folio: 131
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
James Ramsay 45
Ann Ramsay 41
Alfred Percy 16 - Nephew, born Hook, Hants <<<<<<<<<<<<<



So the nephews must be sons of married sisters of either Ann or James.
(Walter Locke clearly is.)

Sorry, this bit didn't appear on that last post, although I had included it -


James and Ann's marriage:

Marriages Sep 1860 (>99%)
Ramsey James Marylebone 1a 796
Stroud Ann Marylebone 1a 796


James , unmarried, in 1851:

James Ramsey
in the 1851 England Census
Name: James Ramsey
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1816
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Springfield, Essex, England
Civil Parish: St Marylebone
Ecclesiastical parish: Rectory
Phillimore Ecclesiastical Parish Maps:
View related Ecclesiastical Parish
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Marylebone
Sub-registration district: Rectory
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 114
Piece: 1488
Folio: 587
Page Number: 38