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My question was about what info John's friend has that connects Margaret Isitt who married Robert Holmes with the people in John's original question:

"looking for charles issitt who married sophia mary williams who married 1893 cant find them apart from their marriage would he have changed his name >?"

If it is Margaret Isitt who is really the person of interest, I am not seeing anything so far that connects her to those people, so all the searching relating to them (and their ancestors and descendants) could be simply a wild goose chase based on some faulty assumption. Heaven knows we have seen our share of them! :-)

Margaret was born well before the Isitt + Williams marriage, she could be their child before they married, or the child of one of them before they married, or she could be the child of some other couple altogether.

John's friend's mother seems to be connected with Joe, son of Margaret Isitt and Robert Holmes.

Unless I've missed it, we don't seem to have the info from Margaret Isitt's marriage certificate to Robert Holmes stating her father's name?

Things I've noticed!, which lead to below...(just to add to confusion!) lol...

Chris :)

Abney Park Cemetery, Burial

Chanell, Richard (aged 59)
of 22 Inver Road, Hackney
1835 - 1894 (buried 06/01/1894)

Inver Road, being Abode for Charles Issitt 1893 Marriage, with below as Witness Frances Rose...(her below)


Marriages Mar 1904 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Brookes Samuel Hackney 1b 508
CHANNELL Frances Rose Hackney 1b 508

(Above, London Marriages, Ancestry...(Residence at Time for both, 111 Pedro St., her Father, Richard Channell, witnesses, Sarah Williams, Frederick Walter Williams)


(now at 139 Pedro also!)

1911 (Find My Past)
Samuel Brookes Head Married Male 44 1867 Princes Rd Lambeth Tin And Iron Plate Worker
Francis Rose Brookes Wife Married Female 35 1876 Howard Rd Stoke Newton Charing
Frederick Walter Williams Brother Married Male 39 1872 Saint Lukes House Painter
Marion Williams Sister In Law Married Female 36 1875 Dedham Essex Charing
139 Pedro Street Clapton Park NE, St John At Hackney, London & Middlesex,


(then next image, seems to be rest of family!)

Frederick W Williams Son Single Male 25 1886 London Bow Truck Lad
Henry Ernest Williams Son Single Male 23 1888 London Bow Porter
Albert Williams Son Single Male 21 1890 London Bow Milliner Wire Shape Maker
James Williams Son Single Male 19 1892 London Clapton Truck
Sarah Williams Head Widow Female 74 1837 London Clapton -
139 Pedro Street Clapton Park NE, St John At Hackney, London & Middlesex


Deaths Jun 1920 (>99%)
-----------------------------------------------------
WILLIAMS Sarah 82 Hackney 1b 483

(if her)

?

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
139 Pedro Street Clapton Park NE, St John At Hackney, London & Middlesex, England

Thomas Harrison Head Married Male 38 1873 Islington House Painter (seaman crossed through)
Sophie Harrison Wife Married Female 43 1868 London St Lukes -
George Harrison Son - Male 13 1898 London Clapton School
Sophie Harrison Daughter - Female 10 1901 London Clapton School
Arthur Harrison Son Single Male 4 1907 London Clapton Park

Married 18yrs, 6 children, 3 still living

Daughter Catherine Elizabeth Issitt 6/8/1904

baptism Catherine Harrison on 13/4/1906 Clapton of 14,Maclaren street by Thomas Harrison a stoker and Sophia Mary Harrison.

So is Thomas Harrison alias Issitt as they were both Stokers??

Maryb.

Without more information I've no idea if we are supposed to find a connection?

Sophia is still in Hackney 1939:

236 Millfields Road , Hackney, London, England

Henry C Green 1904
Sophia Green 1901
Charles Green 1932
Sophia M Harrison 31st January 1867
James Harrison 20th November 1911

Arthur James Issitt Harrison mum nee Williams born hackney 1907 V01b P 451.

Maryb.

Holmes Everlina T M — — 1956 England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005 East Ham, Essex, to Wallis

Heh, so my "Ellen" theory was correct :-)

and that was indeed her death.

Now we just need to know what connects her with the Isitt family in question here ...

This seems to be some of the family in 1939:

Forge House Noak Hill , Romford M.B., Essex, England

Ernest Watts 24 Mar 1899 Male Costermonger Married 185 1
Margaret Watts 31 Oct 1910 Female Unpaid Domestic Duti Married
Closed record
Alfred Holmes 15 Jul 1912 Male Fruiter & Greengrocer (crossed through) smallholder Married
Winifred Holmes 07 Feb 1913 Female Unpaid Domestic Dutie Single
Closed Record
Closed Record
Charles Hulmes 18 Mar 1906 Male Dealer In Greyhunds Married
Everlina Hulmes 21 Dec 1907 Female Unpaid Domestic Married
Closed record
Robert ? Holmes 28 ?? ???? Male ? Fruiter ? & ? Married
Closed record
Closed record
Closed record
Mary (Ann) Holmes 30 May 1914 Female Fruiterers Assistant Single
Closed Record
Everlina Tomasina (T) Wallis (Hulmes) 02 Dec 1927 Female At School Single
Closed record
------------------------------------

Probate for Robert and Margaret ?:

Holmes Robert John of 1029 Romford Road manor Park Essex died 4 September 1946 at Lynchford Road Farnborough Hampshire Administration London 14 October to Mary Holmes spinster. Effects £2539

Holmes Margaret Ellen of 1029 Romford Road Manor Park Essex widow died 18 August 1949 at The London Hospital Whitechapel E1 Probate London 20 November to Herbert William Green solicitor. Effects £4408

My question would actually be:

what info do you have that connects Margaret Isitt (who married Robert Holmes) to Sophia Williams and Thomas/Charles Isitt?

Does your friend have the marriage certificate showing Margaret's father's name and occupation, and Margaret's age, and any witnesses who might be related?

Several people have

Margaret Isitt born 1887 Stepney (or no place of birth specified)

in their trees here. Are you in touch with those people?

I might not be so sure about Stepney as the birthplace. That was her husband's birthplace given in the 1911, and it might have just been a convenient answer if she or he didn't know where she was born.

She must have been born before Sophia Williams' marriage to Mr Isitt. Without a more definite place of birth, it's hard to search for a Williams birth, if her birth was registered in Sophia's name. Or she could have been Mr Isitt's daughter before the marriage to Sophia.

She would have been young when she married in 1906, and I wonder whether she was even as old as 23 in 1911. Or possibly older (if she did not want to appear older than her husband).

Also, Helen is an unusual name for a working-class girl at the time; Ellen is more common. (I always remember the Agatha Christie character who was shocked at a housemaid named Helen: ladies are Helen, housemaids are Ellen).

Does your friend know when or where she died?

I wonder about this death:

Name: Margaret E Holmes
Death Age: 63
Birth Date: 1886
Registration Date: Sep1949
Registration district: Stepney
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5d
Page: 441

One of the children

First name(s) DOLLY
Last name HOLMES
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1918
Age 3
Death quarter 4
Death year 1921
District West Ham
County Essex
Volume 4A
Page 229
Country England
Record set England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Collections from Great Britain, England

HOLMES, MARY ISSITT Order
GRO Reference: 1914 S Quarter in ROMFORD Volume 04A Page 1091

HOLMES, JOHN ISSITT Order
GRO Reference: 1915 D Quarter in WEST HAM Volume 04A Page 530

?

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
56 Martin Street Stratford, West Ham, London & Essex, England


Robert John Holmes Head Married Male 24 1887 Stepney E London General Dealer
Margaret Helen Holmes Wife Married Female 23 1888 Stepney E London -
Robert Holmes Son Single Male 5 1906 Upton Park Essex At Home
Charles Holmes Son Single Male 4 1907 Upton Park Essex At Home
Harry Holmes Son Single Male 3 1908 Upton Park Essex At Home
Margaret Holmes Daughter Single Female 0 1911 Stratford Essex At Home

i was looking for a marriage around 1920 i am way out

thank you nyx any info on the robert and margaret please

could it just be joe ?

There are several Holmes/Issitt births in West Ham but not seeing a Joseph? Ah reg as Joe 1924

Births Mar 1924 (>99%)
Holmes Joe Issitt W. Ham 4a 502

Marriages Sep 1906 (>99%)

HOLMES Robert W. Ham 4a 151
ISITT Margaret W. Ham 4a 151

any one find info on robert holmes who married margaret issitt they had a son joseph around 1924 i am searching again for a friends mam thank for all your help

Same in 1891

Name: Sophia Williams
Gender: Female
Age: 22
Relationship: Stepdaughter
Birth Year: 1869
Mother: Sarah Channell
Birth Place: St Lukes, London, England
Civil Parish: Hornsey
Residence Place: Hornsey, Middlesex, England
Sub registration district: Hornsey
ED, Institution or Vessel: 31
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1066
Folio: 57
Household Members:
Name Age
Richard Channell 58
Sarah Channell 54
Rose Channell 16
Sophia Williams 22
F W Williams 19 (Printer) **



Deaths Mar 1894 (>99%)
Chanell Richard 59 Hackney 1b 333