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Think we are back a generation from what I have sort of tried to fathom out...

Bridget Lynch's father Michael was a TAILOR...he was married to Kate Dhuig..

Children of Michael and Kate included Jerimiah who married Cath.Steele.

So awaiting some documents from the GRO but what I can piece together so far is-

My great grandmother Mary Frances Fleming of Cork married Richard Henry Nelson of Stockton.

Richard Henry Nelson seems to be from several generations from Stockton so pretty easy to research this chap.

Mary Frances Fleming, the Irish dilemma, her parents James Fleming & Mary (Minnie) Lynch also from Cork. They married in 1891. They had one other child Jeremiah but he died as an infant. They moved to Wales, specifically Newport as they appear on the 1901 & 1911 census and looks like several relatives joined them at one time or other.

My great grandmother Mary Frances Fleming (Fanny) appears to have married after 1911 probably to a Mr Smith although I can't confirm this yet until the relevant records turn up from the GRO and has a child Mary (Minnie). This marriage some how comes to an end and then she ends up in Stockton living with my great grandfather Richard Henry Nelson who she eventually marries in 1928.

Reading through this incredible thread which i will read and re-read there are several extensions which I need to add as footnotes and additional branches to my tree. I got some work to do here!

James Fleming death record still tbc but a wealth of facts uncovered.

Laird,
I was revisiting your tree today ( I forgot you gave me access) and note that there are quite a few things missing from your Frizzels in Greenock.

Back in Aug 2015, I looked at multiple records for your family in Greenock and put it all on your thread.
That thread seems to have been deleted?

Your GR tree starts with Hugh Frizzell and Ann Wilson who married in Ballymoney in 1858
There is no further info on your tree re this couple apart from their marriage date and place

Ann Frizzell other name Wilson died in Greenock in 1869
she was 33yrs old (BC1833) and her mother's maiden name was Lafferty

If I recall correctly, her widower was the 39yr old Hugh Frizzell who died in Greenock in 1879.
His parent names will be listed on this cert.

The other omission is their children's birth places.
Whilst James, Jane and Hugh were all born in Ireland, the younger ones named Ann, Margaret and Agnes were all born in Greenock
I looked at these Scottish birth records at the time
This is where the marriage info on Hugh and Ann came from.
It's recorded on the birth certs


We worked out that this family were in Ireland at 1863
( birth of son Hugh) but were in Greenock by 1865 ( birth of daughter Ann)

What happened to the info?
I may have destroyed my original notes.
Did you print it off?

Hi Glassgowlass, the Frizzell thread is still there! So all the Frizzell info you added must be there too. Also I have two trees, one on genesreunited which I'm slowly trying to update and another tree on ancestry.co.uk it maybe on that one or I may not have yet inputted the information on either tree. I try to reference back to these threads because their is a lot of information but sometimes I don't always understand how the dots connect. It's a project for sure :-)

Laird..I am of the same mind as GlasgowLass regarding the Frizzell Thread....when I was reading through the other day I couldn't follow some of the thread...it was definitely as if the continuity was "missing" in places .

I located it Laird.
Hadn't realised that it had been running for over 2 years.


However, rather than put this on that thread, I am putting this wee tidbit here.
It may already be somewhere in the thread, spread over the 200+ pages.
Info is not in either your GR or Ancestry tree

Do you recall that I was certain that your grandfather, George was not an only child?
Born 16yrs after his parents marriage, I was fairly certain he had other, older siblings

There is a way to retrieve info from the Scottish 1911 census without purchase
George's parents, Hugh and Christina are both on this index, which means they are in the same household

564/1 2/ 17
Greenock East
Renfrew


Also in the household are:
Mary Frizzell age 5
Catherine Frizzell age 2
Hugh Frizzell age 0

The corresponding birth indexes look right.
FRIZZELL
MARY MAXWELL
F
1905
564/1 944
Greenock East

FRIZZELL
CATHERINE MAXWELL
F
1909
564/2 166
Greenock West

FRIZZEL
HUGH
M
1911
564/1 383
Greenock East

There are quite a few more Frizzell children born in Greenock after 1911 and some of them MUST be Hugh and Christina's children.
They Include children with first names of:
Robert Brown 1915
Christina Sutherland 1917
Peter Sutherland,1922
Hester Brown, 1924 (twin)
Williamina Sutherland 1924 (twin)
Evan M Sutherland 1925
Annie b 1927
Children named Hester Brown and Williamina Sutherland Frizzel are indexed consecutively. I expect that they are twins

Scottish deaths after 1974 show the mother's maiden name and from above list, the mother's maiden name was indeed Sutherland

Birth
FRIZZELL
ROBERT BROWN
M
1915
564/1 403
Greenock East

Death:
FRIZZELL
ROBERT BROWN
60
*SUTHERLAND*
1976
640/ 312
Greenock

Female deaths after 1974 include maiden name, married name and mother's maiden name
This means that the marriages and deaths for above Mary Maxwell Frizzell and Catherine Maxwell Frizzell are easily sourced
* relates to mother's maiden name

Marriage:
FRIZZELL
CATHERINE M
PAUL
DUNCAN BLACK
1929
564/2 130
Greenock West

Her death
PAUL also indexed under Frizzell
CATHERINE MAXWELL
67
*SUTHERLAND*
1976
640/ 901
Greenock

Marriage

FRIZZELL
MARY MAXWELL
LAPSLEY
ROBERT
1930
564/2 47
Greenock West

Death
LAPSLEY.... Also registered under Frizzell
MARY MAXWELL
81
*SUTHERLAND*
1986
660/ 196
Largs


Birth
FRIZZELL
ANNIE
F
1927
564/1 273
Greenock East

marriage:
FRIZZELL
ANNIE
HOUSTON
NATHAN BUCHANAN
1950
564/ 109
Greenock

Death
HOUSTON also registered under Frizzell
ANNIE
75
*SUTHERLAND*
2002
640/ 387
Inverclyde

Thanks GlassgowLass, I think it was the above info that helped me realise that my Scottish grandad George Alexander Lever Frizzell was actually the runt of the litter :-) I think Hugh Frizzell and Christina Sutherland had 10 children. The Frizzell thread infact has helped me track down several cousins which is how I got the wedding photo of my great grandparents Hugh and Christina from 1904.....it was actually still in Greenock on the mantelpiece of one of their grandsons imagine that!

Dd you ever find the link to your grandfather's name?
Who was he named for? What is the significance of Lever?

That one was driving me crazy and I am still certain that it links to a marriage in Ballymoney between George Lever and Jane Frizzell

George Lever was living in Renfrewshire at the time and they also turned up in Renfrewshire after their marriage
I was sure that this Jane Frizzell would form part of your family but, unless she fibbed, she stated that her father was called Michael Frizzell

I don't know if this is a Scottish tradition or perhaps a quirk of my Frizzell family but their appears to be a tradition of carrying over surnames as firstnames....this was further confirmed by an American cousin who has 4 names including his parents maiden name as a Christian name. So I'm convinced the Lever part of my Grandads name is part of this tradition and I think you very likely made a correct connection with the Lever family.......I would never in a million years have figured that out without you spotting that :-)

Scotland did have it's own traditional naming pattern,many families adhered to it and it really helps with tracing family history.

This however, can come with it's own set of problems.
For example
My direct ancestors had 6 sons and all of them named their 2nd daughter for their mother. ( given full maiden name of their mother plus the surname)
They were all born within 10yrs of each other

SEVEN further marriages for the girls were easy to find but, marriages pre 1855 did not name the father or parents
Which one of 6 brothers was the father to each of the 7 brides and which one married twice?

Some were easy because their cousin(s) were not old enough to marry in the time period.
Others who married over a 5yr period were not quite so easy to determine

ONE of these girls did marry twice but, her 1st husband named on her death certificate does NOT reflect the name of the spouse that 7th marriage .
I can't find anything for her 1st husband but, the same name appears on a 2nd document relating to this girl.
I am still none the wiser.

The naming pattern followed by the girls after marriage was often an indicator of her parentage but, a post 1855 death cert is required as confirmation

I have seen family trees on other sites where the fathers/daughters and their subsequent marriages are all mixed up because the tree was based on guesswork.

I believe that the Irish had a similar but, slightly different naming tradition

GlassgowLass that's quite a puzzle for you to solve and yes I know what you mean about trees with mixed up information. I sometimes wonder if I should just delete my tree and start again so as to clear out the likely mistakes. As we've seen with my great great grandfather James Fleming and others once you get back to 4th and 5th generation it becomes increasingly difficult to pin family members down. I may be just a bit unlucky but I'm picking up a vibe that we all seem to have some mysteries in our lineage. The Bloxham one for me was the big break through. :-)

Laird...The main problem a lot of people have when doing their Tree is not having Primary Source info. they rely on what is on other peoples trees and are never check the validity of the information.

Naming patterns in Ireland are as GlasgowLass said very similar to that of Scottish naming patterns although the mothers maiden name appeared to be only carried forward when the family had Scottish origins..mainly found with the families in the North and of the Presby.C of E or C of Ireland persuasion.

In Ireland the 1st male child was named for the Paternal Grandfather the 1st female for the Maternal Grandmother and so on...

Creating a family tree is not an exact science and normally takes lots and lots of detective work !!!

Laird..Have just been looking over your thread 2016 and found the following...where did you get the info.from for the Marriage to Daniel Smith..???

Laird Report 7 Aug 2016 00:42

This looks the closest to being right but the dates are still off-


Name: Mary Frances Fleming Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 20-Aug-1893
Address: Parish/District: AGHADA
Gender: Female County Co. Cork
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: James Fleming Mother: Mary Lynch
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: George Not Legible Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Jane Lynch
Notes:
PRIEST: J W
MARRIED DANIEL SOMITH 12TH JULY 1914. CORAM REV. E S. HILL
SAINT MARYS AT PARISH CHURCH NEWPORT ENGLAND.
MARRIED HENRY 30TH MAY 1934. CORAM RD. TAYLETON.
WITNESSES EDWARD HODGSON & ELLEN FEELEY ST MARYIS CHURCH STOCKTAND N
FORD.

Eringobragh1916 OMG i think you spotted something that I never even saw and probably dismissed.......Mary Frances Fleming in all likely did marry a Mr Daniel Smith holy molly!!! Good lord Eringobragh1916 you have eyes!!! What are the chances???

Yes I see the dates are incredibly out but this can not be a coincidence.....clearly the documents I have ordered from the GRO will confirm this one way or the other but fantastic eye sight I can not believe you spotted this, thank you very much :-)

https://imgur.com/a/vKj3O

https://imgur.com/a/pDeSp

Well who knew? Haha great grandmother Mary Frances Fleming was indeed previously married.

https://imgur.com/a/f586w

I see its the address as on the 1911 census 36 Alexander Road.

(lol, well now you know!)

Chris :)

It explains the 1910-20 period now and obviously her first daughter Minnie Smith although I'll confirm that later this week when I recieve the pdf from the GRO.

Mary Angela Smith is indeed her daughter....this would be Minnie I posted a photo of earlier in this thread. Bc again. Shows address as 36 Alexander Road.

As suggested the dc I ordered for James Fleming was a bust.....2 out 3 ain't bad ;-)