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Ooooh!

What about this? or am I just being hopeful because it combines the 2 names lol

Small Household (3 People)
62 Ingoldsby Road , Gravesend M.B., Kent, England

Donald Small 07 Jan 1896 Male River Seaman Donkey Man ? Married 187 1
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Dorothy (M) Small (Osborne) 10 Sep 1897 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 187 3

Nyx. I managed to get in contact with my friend today , his wife was Margaret Butcher, her mother being Margaret Osborne and he said that he thought Margaret Osbornes mother was a Small and they lived over in Southend, but unsure if they came over to live in Gravesend . Just looked at the marriage certificate for Charles Henry Butcher and Margaret Osborne,1935 . Father Frederick Osborne and just noticed the witnesses was a D. Small and a D M Osborne. . I found a marriage for a Frederick Osbourne and. Louise Frances Small in Bethnal Green but unsure if these could be the parents of Margaret Osborne b1916. Still unable to find a birth for her even under the name of mother Small. I thought good when he told me the name Small but I seem to have hit a blank wall again, especially as he said they came from Southend

I think I've looked at all the Fredericks in the Gravesend/Dartford areas on the 1911 census but nothing that vaguely matches.

What we really need is the 1921 census !

The only thing I can think of is that you buy the birth certs for the Butcher/Osborne children and see whether they indicate Margaret having a different surname/first name? But that seems unlikely.

However there is no Margaret or variant born at right time in Kent. so I'm stuck.

I think I may have asked before but who were the witnesses on the Butcher/Osborne marriage cert? They may not re relatives but could help .

Hi Nyx. Well what a coincidence living nr Green St Green, I live not far away in Northfleey by A2. Getting back to Daisy Summers who died in 1907 don't think it was her who gave birth to Daisy Summers b 1902 and Chsrles Henry Summers b 1906 living in Harmer Street Gravesend with grandparents Edward George and Alice Summers, obviously this Daisy Summers is a different one to the Green St Green one. It certainly is all so complicated. Just can't understand why the birth of Margaret Osborne can't be found unless she had a different christian name or was never registered and definitely a different Frederick Osborne , than the one married to Daisy Summers. If I could find a Frederick Osborne in the 1911 census who was a tram driver it may give a lead but then that may not have been his occupation in 1911.

I think it needs to be worked out which Summers family is which, perhaps on a large sheet of paper lol, so here for reference

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census
The Post Office Green Street Green Dartford, Darenth, Kent, England

Ellen Summers Head Widow Female Baker 56 1855 Westwood Nr Gravesend
Stanley Gregory Summers Son Single Male Decorator 28 1883 Clarence St Gravesend
Walter Gordon Summers Son Single Male Student 18 1893 Green St Green Dartford
William Donald Keeble Summers Son Single Male Student 14 1897 Green St Green Dartford
Helen Eliza Summers Son's Widow Widow Female Grocer 27 1884 Hazeldene Cottage Eppign New Rd Buckhurst Hill
Edward Frank Summers Grandson - Male - 2 1909 Hazeldene Cottage Eppign New Rd Buckhurst Hill
Howard Martin Summers Grandson - Male - 0 1911 Hazeldene Cottage Eppign New Rd Buckhurst Hill
Angleo Sanger Servant Single Male Foreman Baker 25 1886 Brasted Kent
Albert Frank Stevens Servant Single Male Assistant Baker 20 1891 The Downs Northfleet

More and more complicated :-S

The 1901 I have just posted is this couple,

Marriages Sep 1879 (>99%)

Keeble Ellen Dartford 2a 644
SUMMERS Edward Gregory Dartford 2a 644

childrens names on GRO give mmn as Keeble, here she is SUMMERS, DAISY KEEBLE Order
GRO Reference: 1888 S Quarter in DARTFORD Volume 02A Page 455


Deaths Mar 1905 (>99%)
Summers Edward Gregory 49 Dartford 2a 384

SUMMERS, DAISY MAUD mmn SHILLITOE Order
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in STROOD Volume 02A Page 613

parents

Marriages Jun 1881 (>99%)
SHILETTO Alice N. Aylesford 2a 758
SUMMERS Edward George N Aylesford 2a 758

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Post Office, Green Street Green, Darenth, Dartford, Kent, England

E G Summers Head Married Male 45 1856 Grocer & Baker Gravesend, Kent, England
Ellen Summers Wife Married Female 46 1855 - Southfleet, Kent,
Howard Summers Son Single Male 20 1881 Grocer & Baker Darenth, Kent, England
Stanley Summers Son Single Male 18 1883 Apprentice Writer & Grainer Gravesend, Kent, England
Herbert Summers Son Single Male 15 1886 Grocer's Asst Darenth, Kent, England
Daisy Summers Daughter - Female 12 1889 - Darenth, Kent,
Walter G Summers Son - Male 8 1893 - Darenth, Kent, England
William D Summers Son - Male 4 1897 - Darenth, Kent, England
Florence Moss Servant Single Female 18 1883 Servant Domestic -

Name: Age at Death (in years): Order:
SUMMERS, DAISY 18 Order
GRO Reference: 1907 M Quarter in HOLBORN Volume 01B Page 440

Just come across this, while looking on news archives

Gravesend Reporter, North Kent and South Essex Advertiser 23 February 1907

Deaths

Summers- On the 8th inst Daisy Summers age 18 only daughter of the late E G Summers, Green St Green, at the National Hospital, Queens Square, Bloomsbury.

Hi John

from 1939 register

"Household (1 Person)
81 Darnley Road , Gravesend M.B., Kent, England

This property was vacant in 1939 "

neighbours at 83, Edward & Alice Brown

Nyx. Did you find on the 1939 register who lived at 81 Darnley Road Gravesend, because that's were it states Margaret Osborne &Charles Henry Butcher lived on their 1935 marriage certificate. I see you asked in a previous post the occupation of Margarets father Frederick, it states a tram driver and I know Gravesend had trams.

Nyx. Did you find on the 1939 register who lived at 81 Darnley Road Gravesend, because that's were it states Margaret Osborne &Charles Henry Butcher lived on their 1935 marriage certificate. I see you asked in a previous post the occupation of Margarets father Frederick, it states a tram driver and I know Gravesend had trams.

Chris please would you leave it there at least for now some of it is definitely relevant, and helps to have it to refer to :-) though I admit I am totally lost on Margaret Osborne :-S

Do you want me to delete posting on Summers family?, if not relevant, think I got confused thinking Daisy related!...

Chris :)

Edits (had an idea that Mary Ann Summers might have been her Mother, as she was a witness on 1922 Marriage)

No she doesn't Andy, and no obvious married Betty M with right birth year ( a year or so either way) to account for her.

Edward G Summers married again in 1915

Marriages Jun 1915 (>99%)
Summers Edward G Taylor Gravesend 2a 1778
Taylor Elizabeth A Summers Gravesend 2a 1778

Deaths Sep 1917 (>99%)
Summers Edward G 52 Gravesend 2a 642

His probate record for 1917 is on https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills

gives address as 37 Harmer st which matches up, administration to Elizaberth Ann Summers, his widow, effects £58.5s .

Does Betty Summers appear on 1939 register?

Andy

Andy, that looks like a good maybe, as I can't find anything else on her.

Might be worth looking to see if any of the Summers girls were working in Thanet and then Betty M took the Osborne name if she was living with Daisy? Otherwise I am stumped!