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I will try the marriage for Donald and Dorothy Small first. The Rochford Margaret b1917 presume her name Smith with mother of Smith. Yes it does get expensive. I dread to think how much it has cost me over the years

Clarence Frederick/Frederick C lived in Sussex 1939 ( assuming that's him) but wasn't from there, all the children to the Osborne/Clark combination were born Rochford Essex.

I think buying the DorothyOsborne/ Small marriage cert might be worth it, it should say whether she was a widow or divorced.

or the birth cert for this Margaret

Births Mar 1917 (>99%)
Smith Margaret Smith Rochford 4a 1190

Unfortunately it gets expensive when you have to buy just on the offchance it might be the right one :-(

Don't know how I can buy certificates if they can't be found , the only one would be marriage of Dorothy M Osborne and Donald Small. I somehow don't think Clarence F Osborne is the correct family because of them coming from Sussex, It seems the Osbornes, Smalls seem to be from either Kent or Essex. I don't know what to think, all seems rather strange

No but Clarence Frederick ( even if it is the right marriage) wasn't the father, so I thought perhaps on Margaret's marriage that the alleged father's name and occupation were just added 'randomly' as she was illegitimate ?

Hard to say without buying the various certs :-)

Alma beatrice Clark didn't marry Osborne as far as I can see, though the children are evidently hers , so may indicate he also wasn't free to marry.

Just looked at marriage certificate again and Frederick was a Tram Conductor not driver bony know how I missed that, must have just glanced at word Tram

My friend definetly said his wife Margarets mother was a Small, he would only know it as Small if her mother was Dorothy Margaret Osborne who married Donald Small and she took the name of Small, that's all I can think it was. He hasn't seen the marriage certificate yet for his in laws. Frederick Osborne on certificate is a Tram Driver so don't think it is Clarence Frederick Osborne because he drove trains. Certainly a mystery family

I'm going through all the marriages of a Dorothy M and looking into this one, it being Southend


First name(s) CLARENCE F
Last name OSBORNE
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1919
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ CLARENCE F OSBORNE married
Dorothy M Smith
Spouse's last name Smith
District Rochford
District number -
County Essex
Country England
Volume 4A
Page 1603
Record set England & Wales Marriages 1837-2005

Clarence was born Islington 1894 , can't see him on the 1939 reg as yet. His middle name was Frederick taken from

Britain, Trade Union membership registers
First name(s) Clarence Frederick
Last name Osborne
Birth year -
Admission year 1915
Age 20
Occupation/grade Porter
Trade Railway Workers
Union name National Union Of Railwaymen
Union branch Southend
Union branch as transcribed Southend
County Essex
Country England
Archive Modern Records Centre
Archive reference MSS.127/NU/OR/2/41
Folio or page 192
Title General Register
Dates Dec 1914-Mar 1915
Information contained Members 598001-613000
No of volumes 1
Record set Britain, Trade Union Membership Registers
Category Education & work
Subcategory Guild & Trade Associations

Births Dec 1895 (>99%)
Smith Dorothy Margaret Rochford 4a 534

Wondering if this could be Margaret ?

Births Mar 1917 (>99%)
Smith Margaret Smith Rochford 4a 1190

Not seeing Clarence in 1939?

Add: wondering about this one in 1939, children's mmn is Clark

Osborne Household (9 People)
130 Trafalgar Road , Portslade-by-Sea U.D., Sussex, England

Frederick C Osborne 24 Mar 1894 Male Agent Car Mechanic Married 124 1
Alma B Gosper (Osborne) 08 Dec 1908 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Single 124 2
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Frederick (E) Osbourne 03 Jun 1927 Male At School Single 124 4
Ivy D Wren (Osborne) 17 May 1929 Female At School Single 124 5
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.
Rita V Greenfield (Osborne) 04 Nov 1930 Female At School Single 124 7
George M Osborne 02 May 1932 Male At School Single 124 8
Sorry, this record is officially closed. Check if you can open a closed record.

Alma Beatrice Osborne married Gosper 1951 , gives 9/12/ 1905 as birth so slightly different, but she seems to be the mother of the Osborne children if this one?

Births Mar 1906 (>99%)
Clark Alma Beatrice Lambeth 1d 388

Nyx. Been thinking it all over, suppose Dorothy M Osborne was the mother of Margaret and she seperated from Frederick, the reason why she didn't marry Donald Small until 1944. It was a registry office wedding so a small one and Margaret had to name her father obviously, he wasn't at the wedding thats why Dorothy and Donald were. Now my friend said the family came from Southend ,I have found a marriage for a Frederick James Osborne to Louise Frances. Small in Bethnal Green Mar 1895 so I wonder about this connection

Oh long before my time lol.

Too long ago John lol, mine worked on the river up to the early 1920s, watermen and lightermen from Brentford area.
:-)

Just looking back at your posts it was Frederick Small who I worked with. Thanks for finding what you have, I will have a look on Ancestry and see what might pop up. If your family worked on the Thames no doubt I may know them,

It certainly was a close community, I can see the same names cropping up. Very like some of my family who worked on the Thames and when the children married they all seemed to live in the one road lol.

I'll have another look tomorrow and see if I can narrow down where Dorothy was from. :-)

Perhaps the Osborns births were never registered, that's why so much difficulty in finding them. At least we now know there was no connection at all to the Summers family

Yes, I worked on a wharf on the Thames worked with two of the Smalls and they were connected to the McLeods, I also worked with Brian Lear and I do believe his mother remarried to a McLeod so it was a close community in the Ingoldsby Road area.

I wish I could find her before 1939 though! Dorothy M should be easy to find but she's not!

OH yes NYx. Fantastic. Sure this is the connection Donald Small and Dorothy M Osborne obviously both being the witnesses at the wedding of Charles Henry Butcher and Margaret Osborne. Ingoldsby Road is where the Butchers living at no 39 and Margaret their daughter married Brian Lear living at no 93, now you have found the Smalls and Osbornes living at no 62, they all tie in, wow . So if Dorothy Margaret Osborne was born in 1895 and Margaret Osborne was born in 1916 presume they could be sisters.

Just trying to see if this is a first marriage for Donald?

Marriages Dec 1917 (>99%)
McLeod Ada E Small Gravesend 2a 1566
Small Donald McLeod Gravesend 2a 1566

They had children the first of whom all died young

Births Dec 1918 (>99%)
Small Donald J W Mcleod Gravesend 2a 950
Births Mar 1921 (>99%)
Small Marjorie A McLeod Gravesend 2a 1242
Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
Small Ada E McLeod Gravesend 2a 1189
Births Dec 1923 (>99%)
Small George V D McLeod Gravesend 2a 1071

Alice survived married 1951
Phoebe
Iris F
Ronald
Frederick R all survived


Ada died, possibly very soon after birth of last child.
First name(s) ADA E
Last name SMALL
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1899
Age 32
Death quarter 1
Death year 1931
District Gravesend
County Kent
Volume 2A
Page 1128
Country England

This one is a year out, but right day and month...middle name Margaret...

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription

First name(s) DOROTHY MARGARET
Last name SMALL
Gender Female
Birth day 10
Birth month 9
Birth year 1895
Age -
Death quarter 3
Death year 1977
District Dartford
County Kent
Volume 16
Page 0880
Country England

her probate gives address as Denholm Hse Denholm Road Northfleet

This is Donald's death, DOB matches the 1939 reg

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
First name(s) DONALD
Last name SMALL
Gender Male
Birth day 7
Birth month 1
Birth year 1896
Age -
Death quarter 2
Death year 1969
District Dartford
County Kent
Volume 5F
Page 664
Country England

probate on https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/#wills gives address as 5 Edwin St Gravesend.

Now it looks like this might be them, but not marrying till June qtr1944 though living together in 1939

OSBORNE Dorothy M Small Chatham 2a 2641
SMALL Donald Osborne Chatham 2a 2641


Maybe?
Births Dec 1897 (>99%)
Osborne Dorothy Mabel Elham 2a 1035 EDIT not sure about this birthas she may be in Folkestone in 1939
:-|