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not got the first marriage certificate yet, am waiting for my friend to get back to me with permission to order it.

Richard was listed as farmer.

Jan x

Hello Jan, that's great news.

Do you have Patrick's first marriage certificate (1869) ? Just to check the details match the second.

Do the certificates list an occupation for Patrick's father, Richard?

What was Patricks address on his first marriage certificate? And names of witnesses?

nudging back up :-D :-D :-D :-D

Hi folks
Wow got a major breakthrough on this one.

Sent for Patricks second marriage and its him !
It lists his father as Richard, so another generation to find :-)

Also I sent off for the birth of Mary Ellen Connell mother Ann Gannon registered in Lancaster...... YIPPEE this must be her. 29 Sept 1873 (she did state her birthdate as 16 Sept 1873 on 1939 Register) Father Patrick Connon mother Ann Connon formerly Gannon

I know the spelling is different but its probably accent/or Priest misheard but I am certain now this is her. Blimey what a time I've had with this one.

Thanks everyone for your kind encouragement and willing searches.
much appreciated

Jan xxx

Please do let us know what Patrick & Clara's marriage cert says when it arrives, Jan.

Gee whizz folks thank you so much

I have been going round in circles with this one, what with Connell, O'Connell, Commer and it being Irish its been a trial.

Will have to put all this down on paper and go through it all. I did have Sarah connell marrying a Henry Donovan because I followed the lead for the Lawrence from the census.
So now I think I can see daylight with this search

:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

This might be the fourth child of Sarah & Henry ???

DONOVAN, DENNIS mms CONNELL
GRO Reference: 1903 D Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 363

Deaths Sep 1905 (>99%)
Donovan Dennis 1 Manchester 8d 141

No wonder I couldn't find that 1911 census on Ancestry!

Menry Donoran
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Menry Donoran
Age in 1911: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 1 Greenhough Stace Woodward St Man
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Collier Hewer
Registration district: Manchester
Registration District Number: 466
Sub-registration district: Ancoats
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Piece: 24100
Household Members:
Name Age
Menry Donoran 29
Sarah Donoran 28
Lawrence Donoran 4
Annie Donoran 1

One of the deceased children:

DONOVAN, PATRICK mms CONNELL
GRO Reference: 1902 M Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 209


DONOVAN, PATRICK 8
GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 114

Yes, that's them:

DONOVAN, ANNIE mms CONNELL
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 172


I have the same situation in my tree - a child was registered with her parents and siblings, but happened to be spending the night of the census with her grandparents, so was listed there too. Quite common, I expect.

If this is them it means son, Lawrence was also registered with his Grandad in 1911:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
1 Greenbough Place Manchester, Manchester, Lancashire, England

Henry Donovan Head Married Male Collier Hewer 29 1882 Lanc Manchester
Sarah Donovan Wife Married Female - 28 1883 Lanc Manchester
Lawrence Donovan Son - Male - 4 1907 Lanc Manchester
Annie Donovan Daughter - Female - 1 1910 Lanc Manchester

(married 9 years. 4 children, 2 still living)
------------------------

DONOVAN, ANNIE mmn: CONNELL
GRO Reference: 1909 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 172

??


Marriages Dec 1901 (>99%)
CONNELL Sarah Manchester 8d 420
Donovan Henry Manchester 8d 420

I don't see them in 1911.



Wild stab in the dark:

Sarah Donovan
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: Sarah Donovan
Death Age: 69
Birth Date: abt 1883
Registration Date: Mar 1952
Registration district: Manchester
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10e
Page: 379

Snap re Sarah 1869!

Yes, I think we've definitely cracked the Patrick/Ann family.
but is that the same Patrick as the one who married Clara?

His marriage cert, which Jan has sent for, will hopefully clear that up.

It looks like he could have Sarah's child with him in 1911

DONOVAN, LAWRENCE mmn: CONNELL
GRO Reference: 1906 D Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 217

other possible children (and deaths):

Birth:
CONNELL, SARAH mmn: GANNON
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 585

Death:
First name(s) SARAH
Last name CONNELL
Gender Female
Birth year 1870
Age 1
Death quarter 1
Death year 1871
District Chorlton
County Lancashire
Volume 8C Page 493
-------------------------------

Birth:
CONNELL, LAURENCE mmn: GANNON
GRO Reference: 1871 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 767

Death in Lancaster (where Mary was born):
First name(s) LAWRENCE
Last name CONNELL
Gender Male
Birth year 1871
Age 2
Death quarter 2
Death year 1873
District Lancaster
County Lancashire
Volume 8E Page 462

An earlier child who possibly died ??

CONNELL, SARAH mms GANNON
GRO Reference: 1869 J Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 585

Death ?
CONNELL, SARAH 1
GRO Reference: 1871 M Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 493


The trouble is, there are so many Patrick Connells and similar in Lancashire!

???

Patrick Connell
in the 1871 England Census
Name: Patrick Connell
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1841
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ann Connell
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil Parish: Hulme
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Chorlton <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Sub-registration district: Hulme
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Household schedule number: 287
Piece: 3996
Folio: 26
Page Number: 46
Household Members:
Name Age
Patrick Connell 30 - stonemason's labourer
Ann Connell 26



And is the Patrick who married Ann Gannon and had all the children the same Patrick as the one who married Clara ??

AG- Looks good. Fits with her place of birth on the later census.

Think we could be getting somewhere :)

Possibly Mary Ellen ????

CONNON, MARY ELLEN mms GANNON
GRO Reference: 1873 D Quarter in LANCASTER Volume 08E Page 645

That looks very good for R L, AQ!

I spent ages looking for him, but hadn't spotted that one.

Still trying to sort things-

Possible marriage- for Ann and Patrick???

Marriages Mar 1869
Gannon Ann Manchester 8d 615 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
GREEN John Manchester 8d 615
O'Connell Patrick Manchester 8d <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
WHALEN Elizabeth Manchester 8d 615
----------------------------------

Possible birth for R L Connell-

O'CONNELL, RICHARD LAWRENCE mmn: GARRON
GRO Reference: 1876 M Quarter in WEST DERBY & TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 256
------------------------

Richard possible marriage to Sarah Ann Bracegirdle in 1894

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
48, Thompson Street, Manchester, Lancashire, England

Richard Cennel Head Married Male 25 1876 Marine Store Keeper Liverpool, Lancashire,
Sarah A Cennel Wife Married Female 26 1875 - Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary N Bracegirdle Sister-In-Law Single Female 29 1872 Rag Sorter (Waste W'House) Manchester, Lanc
Kate Holland Aunt Widow Female 50 1851 Charwoman Isle of Man, Isle of Man