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rootgather
there is a 1879 birth
BOWEN, CHARLES - Order
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 732

again no mothers name

If and only if, the age at Death for Charles is correct it is likely that he was born in 1879 but the birth for the Charles on the 1911 census is given as 1878. Can they be the same person?

Is there any way of accessing the asylum records to see if they give more information?

Haven't given up on this, but work keeps getting in the way! Will keep looking back to see everyone else's input. Hopefully we'll get there in the end!

I do agree though that nothing is definite and pointed out that Williams is an extremely common name for that part of the country! :-S :-S

Thought I'd just take a quick look- but I also want to get out in the garden before it gets too hot.

The only other thing I found was Charles listed on the Gloucestershire electoral registers in 1913 at Winterbourne Hill.

I don't see him listed after and as daughter Florence was registered in Pontypridd in 1915 I assume they moved from Winterbourne around 1913/1914

(sorry AQ, too much going on in garden, lol, will look in later!, don't give yourself another headache!)

Chris :)

Ok, found the burials for Charles and Bertha at St Michael's Church.

27 Nov 1924 bur Charles Bowen County Asylum, Bridgend, Glamorganshire 45 years Charles J Burrough, Rector

14 Feb 1950 bur Bertha Elizabeth Bowen 3 Penygaireg Road, Tonyrefail, Pontyehin 69 years Sydney R Worters, Rector
---------------------------------------------------

Anyone up for another go today?!
:-D

[RTF]Winterbourne Parish Records - Frenchay Museum Archives
27 Nov 1924 bur Charles Bowen County Asylum, Bridgend, Glamorganshire 45 ...

http://www.frenchaymuseumarchives.co.uk/arch_parish_records.htm

Again from google search.

(so her Father Alfred William, not Albert)...

Chris :)

No advance on the John Bowen though...


Edits (Bertha Baptism, if 1939 should be 1881, and 13 Jan!)


Winterbourne Parish Records - Frenchay Museum Archives

10 April 1881 bap Bertha Elizabeth bn 13 Jan 81 Elizabeth Bisp Winterbourn ...


BISP, ELIZABETH BERTHA -
GRO Reference: 1881 M Quarter in BARTON REGIS Volume 06A Page 206

This is the 1911 that I have for Bertha that SAFC posted in my Bewildering Bertha thread -
http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1366060

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Winterbourne Hill Near Bristol, Winterbourne, Gloucestershire, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Bertha Bowen Wife Married Female Tailore'ss 30 1881 Winterbourne
Transcription
Auther Bowen Son Single Male School 6 1905 Winterbourne
Transcription
Lilly Smart Lodger Single Female Tailor'Ess 22 1889 Winterbourne


married 8 years 1 born 1 living none died

Thanks so much for continuing this Chris...

I appreciate your time.

The newspaper archive is really good!!

I can type in key words so hopefully it will help finding other stuff!!

I am looking to see where Bertha is buried as only Charles name is on the grave stone/vase in St Michaels church in Winterbourne.

Wow,

Thanks everyone for working on this post while I have been out!

I hope it's not giving too many people a headache!

Austin - I spoke to a family member today to see about plying for information.

I was told that Charles Bowen ended up in an Asylum - the story behind it is that the family took in a refugee and that Charles's job was a coal miner (!!) The refugee lad one day said he really didnt want to go working down the mine as he had done with Charles previously...but Charles persuaded him...saying he would be fine...he wasn't and the lad died. Apparently Charles could not deal with the guilt and that's what ended him up in an asylum.
So I found that Charles died on 21st Nov 1924 age 45 and although he was in Bridgend asylum, he was buried in St Michael's Church, Winterbourne, Bristol. This is the church that him and Bertha got married in.

Haven't read all through, but saw below Baptisms on google search...(Frenchay Archives)

(and I have a 'Tick' as viewed before for 1939 Florence Price, if I have posted somewhere before!, also below Death)


Deaths Jun 1972 (>99%)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
BOWEN Arthur Edward C 3Oc1905 Oxford 6b 2611


1939 Register (Find My Past)

3 Pencarreg Road , Llantrisant and Llantwit Fardre R.D., Glamorganshire,
Florence Price 29 Jun 1915 Female Domestic Duties Unpaid Married
David R Price 06 Mar 1916 Male Felter Munition Works Married
(1 closed record)


https://www.freereg.org.uk/

(above has some Bridgend Asylum Burials, not seeing Charles)

Chris :)


1900-1930 - Frenchay Museum Archives

bn 3 Oct 05 Charles & Bertha Bowen Winterbourne Labourer

4 Aug 1915 bap Florence Hilda Charles & Bertha Bowen Winterbourne Miner


BOWEN, ARTHUR CHARLES EDWARD (SMART)
GRO Reference: 1905 D Quarter in CHIPPING SODBURY Volume 06A Page 233

BOWEN, FLORENCE HILDA (SMART)
GRO Reference: 1915 S Quarter in PONTYPRIDD Volume 11A Page 1214


Edits (there was below, if relating?) * NO, I see from Marriage posted earlier, her Father as Albert.

05 March 1934 - Western Daily Press - Bristol, Bristol, England

FUNERAL OF MR A. W. SMART, AT WINTERBOURNE.
MR A. W. SMART, AT WINTERBOURNE. __ funeral of Mr Alfred William Smart (74) of Winterbourne Hill Winterbourne, took place on Saturday at Winterbourrte parish church. Canon A IT. Sewell officiated. The principal mourners were: Mrs Bowen (daughter)...


(below were also mentioned in above article, Daughters)


Marriages Dec 1918 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Luton Alexander Smart Chipping Sodbury 6A 528
Smart Hilda Luton Chipping S 6a 528


Marriages Jun 1925 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------
England Moses B Smart Chipping S. 6a 587
Smart Ethel England Chipping S. 6a 587


(Ethel and Hilda with Mother Elizabeth Smart, 1901, Winterbourne, relates to below)

Marriages Sep 1882 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
Bish Elizabeth Barton Regis 6a 309
Bisp Elizabeth Barton Regis 6a 309
Smart Alfred William Barton R. 6a 309

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1366060?page=1

(just saw above added!)


1939 Register (Find My Past)

Winterbourne Hill , Sodbury R.D., Gloucestershire,
Alexander Lurton 14 Jun 1896 Male Riveter Aeroplane Works Married
Hilda Lurton 29 Feb 1897 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Ronald Lurton 26 May 1919 Male Fitter Aeroplane Works Single


1939 Register (Find My Past)
Thermands Green Farm , Sodbury R.D., Gloucestershire,
Moses B England 13 Aug 1888 Male Repairer Coal Mine (Retired) Widowed
William England 02 Nov 1885 Male Colliery Sawyer Above (Retired) Married
Edith England 15 Aug 1849 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Bernard J England 06 Aug 1910 Male Labourer Balloon Barrage Construction Married
Mary M England 27 Jul 1910 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Amy Warner 21 Apr 1883 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties


Deaths Sep 1935 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------------
England Ethel 50 Chipping S. 6a 232


12 July 1935 - Western Daily Press - Bristol, Bristol, England

WINTERBOURNE FUNERAL OF MRS E. ENGLAND

Large Number of Relatives Present at Service The funeral of Mrs England, wife of Mr B. England, of Sherman's Green Farm, Mangotsfield, took place at interbourne Church, the service being conducted by Canon E. A. ...”


Have you checked in 'Search All Member Trees' (top right of page here, under 'Search') to se if any of these names are shared?...

Yes, I had wondered if Charles and Bertha had parted company, and the later children were perhaps not Charles's at all.

Might be interesting to know who's named as father on Florence's marriage cert:

Florence H Bowen
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Marriage Index, 1916-2005
Name: Florence H Bowen
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1937
Registration district: Pontypridd
Inferred County: Glamorgan
Spouse: David R Price
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 820


Not that it would help us find out who Charles was!

I still don't get the Elizabeth Williams/ Griffith/ Vaughan/ Bowen thing.

Where is she?

The Charles in 1911 with his Uncle, is, I'm pretty certain the illegitimate child of Elizabeth Bowen who married Thomas Williams Oct 1880. Elizabeth also had a son Peter before her marriage.

But yes AG, it all seems like guesswork as to which is the correct Charles that married Bertha ! The 1901 looks good, but as you say- not a lot of help for finding him elsewhere. I think a fresh look tomorrow might help.

Just a couple of things though- is the death in Bridgend definitely him? What details are on the death certificate?

Are there really ten years between his children, or are the later siblings just registered as though they're Charles children because Bertha was still married?

I admit that there is possibly circumstantial evidence, in that Bucknell Charles appears only in 1901, in the right place, while Ellesmere Charles doesn't seem to be on the 1901 census, but does reappear in 1911 as a married man.

snap :-(

I'm not surprised you have a headache, AQ!

I don't wish to pour cold water on everyone's research -

but -

there's a lot of guesswork going on!

The Charles Bowen who married Bertha is the one we're looking for, but we have nothing to go on, other than that he said he was 25 in 1903, he said his father was John, and as at 1903 he was living in Winterbourne.

We don't know if the one living in Winterbourne in 1901 is the same person - though it seems feasible.

However, we have no idea where he was born. If he was indeed born in Bucknell, there's no sign of him in any other census.

While the research about the Charles born in Ellesmere, his mother Elizabeth and her various husbands, does seem to hang together, there's nothing to prove that he is the Charles who married Bertha.

Or have I missed something? I feel totally confused.

I've just deleted what thought was his service record because I'm not sure, and because I have a headache, and because I think I might have to give up for the day


Posting again just in case!

First name(s) Charles
Last name Bowen
Birth year 1880
Birth parish Tallen Green
Birth town Malpas
Birth county Cheshire
Birth country England
Service number 30726
Regiment Royal Artillery
Year 1898
Attestation date 11 Oct 1898
Attestation age years 18
Attestation age months 1
Attestation service number 30726
Attestation corps Royal Artillery
Discharge corps Royal Artillery
Document type Attestation

States he was a butcher. Not looking like the chap that married Bertha Smart! This man was still in service until 1910.

Mother Elizabeth Williams of Tallon Green (crossed throught and Threapwood written over)
Elder brother Peter Bowen, younger sister Lily Bowen
--------------------------------------------------

So, would one of these be the brother:

BOWEN, PETER mmn:
GRO Reference: 1875 S Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 734
BOWEN, PETER mmn:
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in ELLESMERE Volume 06A Page 747
----------------------------------

Baptism:
First name(s) Peter
Last name Bowen
Birth year 1877
Baptism year 1877
Baptism day 29
Baptism month Apr
Place Hanmer
County Flintshire
Country Wales
Father's first name(s) -
Mother's first name(s) Elizabeth
Record set Flintshire Baptisms

Maddie- the Hamner births register under Ellesmere

This would be that Charles birth as posted earlier:

Charles Birth (no maiden name on the GRO indicating illegitimate birth):
Births Sep 1879
Bowen Charles Ellesmere 6a 732

There are no Elizabeth Williams born to Thomas Williams and Elizabeth Brookfield.

I still can't make that marriage to Vaughan or Bowen fit with a birth of Charles c1879.

I still think that the Charles living with his uncle in 1911 was the illegitimate child of Elizabeth Bowen that later married Thomas Williams.

However, whether that Charles is the Charles that married Bertha Smart is not certain.

so the 1911 is correct ???
110 St Anne St Chester, Chester, Cheshire, England

Charles Williams Head Married Male Labourer 39 1872 Flintshire Hammer
Elizabeth Williams Wife Married Female - 37 1874 Flintshire Hammer
>>Charles Bowen Nephew Married Male Labourer 33 1878 Flintshire Hammer
Fredrick Charles Mathews Boarder Married Male Traveler Dealer In Gramaphones 38 1873 America Resident
Agnes Mathews Boarder Married Female - 35 1876 Edinburgh Scotland
Robt Lindsey Mathews Boarder - Male - 4 1907 Leith Scotland
Hope Ernest Mathews Boarder - Male - 2 1909 Leith Scotland
Helen Hogg Price Boarder Widow Female Teacher Of Music 40 1871 Polton Lasswade
Helen Mary Price Boarder - Female - 8 1903 Berwick N B Mitchelstown Co Cork T

there is no birth for charles bowen in flintshire so pob on 1911 is wrong