Find Ancestors

Ahh- here she is (and in the correct area for that Henry Walker birth):

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
4, Northumberland Street, St Marylebone, Marylebone, London, England

Henry Lippiatt Head Married Male 27 1854 Mason Almondbury, Gloucestershire,
Amelia Lippiatt Wife Married Female 27 1854 - Bristol, Gloucestershire,
Elizabeth Lippiatt Daughter Single Female 0 1881 - St Pancras, Middlesex,
Caroline Hutchisen Niece Single Female 20 1861 Domestic Servant Bristol, Gloucestershire

Jude- I was thinking the same.

She's not with her family in 1881. I'll post the 1871 & 1881 for reference:

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Dowry Place, Clifton, Gloucestershire, England

Robert Hutchinson Head - Male 37 1834 Seaman Scotland
Caroline Hutchinson Wife - Female 37 1834 - Gloucestershire,
Robert Hutchinson Son - Male 16 1855 - Gloucestershire, England
Charles Hutchinson Son - Male 14 1857 - Gloucestershire, England
Caroline Hutchinson Daughter - Female 11 1860 Bristol, Gloucestershire,
Albert Hutchinson Son - Male 7 1864 - Gloucestershire, England
Fredrick Hutchinson Son - Male 0 1871 - Gloucestershire, England
-----------------------------------------------

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Hotwell Road Volunteer, Clifton, Barton Regis, Gloucestershire, England

Robert Hutchinson Head Married Male 47 1834 Publican Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Caroline Hutchinson Wife Married Female 46 1835 - Bristol, Gloucestershire,
Albert Hutchinson Son Single Male 16 1865 Scholar Bristol, Gloucestershire,
Frederick Hutchinson Son Single Male 10 1871 Scholar Bristol, Gloucestershire,
Emma Hutchinson Daughter Single Female 7 1874 Scholar Bristol, Gloucestershire,
Alfred Hutchinson Son Single Male 5 1876 Scholar Bristol, Gloucestershire,

Wow this took some digesting and then I realised that both of the mothers were Caroline!

Here is Henry's mother in 1911

Name: Caroline Liles
Age in 1911: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Gloucester, Gloucester, England
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Search Photos: Search for 'Bethnal Green' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 152 Hackney Road, Bethnal Green
Marital Status: Widowed
Years Married: 25
Estimated Marriage Year: 1886
Occupation: LICENSED VICTUALLER
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Registration District Number: 17
Sub-registration district: Bethnal Green South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 35
Piece: 1452
Household Members:
Name Age
Caroline Liles 50
Albert Edward Liles 19
Daniel Simmons 32
Martha King 26


Doesn't add anything to AQ's sterling work but it does confirm Albert with mother mmn Htuchinson. Can see this in your tree

Can anyone fine her in 1881? If that birth is correct, and it looks it, then she must have been pregnant with Henry at the time. Now was he conceived in Gloucestershire or London?

Jude

Now, this raises questions as to why Henry would marry in the name of Walker, and why there is no birth (under the name of Liles) showing in the index for him.

On the grave register of Henry's death, Henry is listed as the son of Caroline Liles. He is not listed as the son of Frederick Cooper Liles, or the son of the late Frederick Cooper Liles- which is quite unusual.

So taking safc's idea that he could be Caroline's child (born to her before she married Frederick in 1885), I found the following possible birth (note that Caroline's maiden name was Hutchinson):

WALKER, HENRY (Mother's maiden name: HUTCHINSON )
GRO Reference: 1882 S Quarter in MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 587

I don't see a likely marriage for parents of this birth, and we know that Caroline was single when she married Frederick- but she could have registered Henry's birth as though she was married. Of course, the only way to be sure would be to order the birth certificate.
----------------------------------------------

Caroline marries again in 1913:

Name: Caroline Liles
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Age: 52
Spouse: George Fisher
Spouse Age: 51
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 1 Jun 1913
Parish: St Leonard, Shoreditch
Borough: Hackney
Father Name: Robert Hutchinson
Spouse Father: Thomas Michael Fisher

and dies in 1951

Lilian was obviously not with her mother during the census.

Here she is with her sister- they are listed as the daughters of Samuel Iden, but this obviously isn't possible, I suspect they were just boarding there:

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
West Square, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London,

Saml J Iden Head Married Male 21 1870 Printer Compositor Gravesend, Kent, England
Emma Iden Wife Married Female 20 1871 - Essex, England
Lillian Nicholson Daughter - Female 14 1877 Dressmaker Middlesex, England
Ada Nicholson Daughter - Female 12 1879 - Middlesex, England
---------------------------------------------------------

Lilian's sister Ada marries Fred Unwin in 1899:

Name: Ada Nicholson (living 11 Holland Road)
Estimated birth year: abt 1879
Age: 20
Spouse: Fred Union
Spouse Age: 27
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 22 May 1899
Parish: St James the Apostle, Lambeth
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: John Nicholson (Mechanic)
Spouse Father: Thomas Union
Witnesses: Thomas Bigg & Lilian Nicholson
------------------------------------------------

Lilian is staying with her sister Ada in 1901:

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
86, Sydney Road, Sheffield, Nether Hallam, Ecclesall Bierlow, Yorkshire, England

Fred Unwin Head Married Male 29 1872 Garden Tool Maker Sheffield, Yorkshire,
Ada Unwin Wife Married Female 22 1879 - Newington, London, England
Lilian Unwin Daughter Single Female 0 1901 - Sheffield, Yorkshire, England
Lilian Nicholson Sister-In-Law Single Female 24 1877 - Newington, London,

OK- hope this isn't too confusing, but I have confirmed that the marriage of Henry Walker and Lilian Nicholson is the correct marriage.

When they get married in 1905 they both Lilian and Henry give the address 11 Holland Road. This was the address where Lilian's mother was living (Her mother remarried to John Edward Bigg/s in 1884).

This is Lilian with her parents in 1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
51, Elliotts Row, St George the Martyr Southwark, St Saviour Southwark, London

John Nicholson Head Married Male 37 1844 File Cutter (Maker) Leeds, Kent,
Caroline Nicholson Wife Married Female 27 1854 - Sheffield, Yorkshire,
Lilian Nicholson Daughter Single Female 4 1877 Scholar Newington, Surrey,
Ada Nicholson Daughter Single Female 2 1879 - Camberwell, Surrey,
Albert Nicholson Son Single Male 0 1881 - Newington, Surrey,
--------------------------------------------

This is Lilian's mother in 1911, with Lilian's half sister, Elsie:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
11 Holland Road Brixton, Lambeth, London, England

Caroline Biggs Head Married Female - 58 1853 Sheffield Yorkshire
Elsie Biggs Daughter Single Female - 19 1892 London
-----------------------------------------------

Elsie marries in 1919 to Clarence Hall

First name(s) ELSIE
Last name BIGG
Marriage quarter 4
Marriage year 1919
Spouse: Clarence A Hall
Spouse's last name Hall
District Reigate
County Surrey
Volume 2A Page 508
-----------------------------------------------

Elsie is then shown in 1939 living with Lilian:

Walker-Liles Household Nags Head Public House Horley Road , Reigate M.B., Surrey,

Lilian Walker-Liles 15 Jan 1877 Female Licensed Victualler Widowed
Elsie Hall 29 Feb 1892 Female Builders Clerk Married
Fred Terry 12 Mar 1886 Male Barman Single
----------------------------------------------------------

Lilian's birth:
NICHOLSON, LILIAN (Mother's maiden name: GREEN )
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in ST. SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D Page 196

Elsie's birth (born Elsa)
BIGG, ELSA (mother's maiden name: GREEN)
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON Volume 01D Page 161
-----------------------------------------------------

OK, now it gets complicated.

I don't immediately see a Caroline Green/ John Nicholson marriage- I'll come back to that one.

When Caroline remarries (assuming she did marry Nicholson) in 1884 to John Edward Bigg, she is listed as a widow- father Henry Green. John's father is Richard.

Name: Caroline Nicholson (widow)
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Age: 30
Spouse: John Edward Bigg (pilot)
Spouse Age: 30
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 27 Jan 1884
Parish: St Mary, Newington
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: Henry Green
Spouse Father: Richard Bigg

However- John doesn't hang around long- He was actually born in 1846 and later marries Alice Woods in 1888.

In 1891 Caroline is living with John Nicholson's widowed brother, Thomas (Caroline's children are living elsewhere- I'll get to that later)

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Terrace, Milton, Gravesend, Kent, England

Thomas Bigg Head Widower Male 41 1850 Trinity House Pilot Sheerness, Kent,
Elizabeth A Bigg Daughter Single Female 16 1875 - Wapping, Middlesex,
Hannah G Bigg Daughter Single Female 14 1877 Scholar Wapping, Middlesex,
Lavinia C Bigg Daughter Single Female 7 1884 Scholar Gravesend, Kent,
Mary S Bigg Daughter - Female 5 1886 - Gravesend, Kent, England
Caroline Bigg Visitor Married Female 40 1851 Dressmaker Sheffield, Yorkshire,

This is John's baptism:

Name: John Edward Bigg
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 25 Feb 1846
Baptism Place: Minster-in-Sheppey, Kent, England
Father: Richard Bigg
Mother: Lavinia Bigg

And Thomas' baptism:

Name: Thomas Bigg
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 1 Jul 1849
Baptism Place: Holy Trinity, Sheerness, Kent, England
Father: Richard Bigg
Mother: Lavinia Bigg

But this means she wasn't with John when daughter Elsa/Elsie was born in 1892- Elsa's baptism actually shows that Thomas was her father:

Name: Elsa Bigg
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 21 Oct 1896
Father's name: Thomas Bigg
Mother's name: Caroline Bigg
Parish or Poor Law Union: Kennington St John the Divine
Borough: Lambeth
Abode: 11 Holland Road, Brixton

Thank you AustinQ. I appreciate all your help and that of others today. I'll check from time to time for any postings.

Kind regards

Katnryn

Kathryn- I understand the frustration. Sometimes a break away is good for the brain! There's no rush

Don't dismiss the marriage for Henry Walker that was posted earlier just yet. I may be wrong but the details - occupation, area, time of marriage all seem to fit with the details of the 1911.

I have to go out soon, but will come back to this. Hopefully someone will find the key soon.

Well done AustinQ in finding this further information. Have I completely lost the plot with this research? Maybe I'm getting tired, have been looking at this mystery since yesterday afternoon.

Kathryn

I don't see a link?

Did see this though which might be of interest- he ran The Swan at Acton Lane, Chiswick and was trying to get exemption from the war due to hardship- he was granted one months temporary in July 1916.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14096324

Free to download.

Hi AustinQ. You will need to copy and paste the link below. It's on page 67.

Kathryn

Kathryn- where was the article from? It seems it was written quite a time after his death.

It wouldn't take it as fact

1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Princes Road, Kensington, London, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
F C Liles Head Married Male 41 1850 Beer Retailer Surrey, England
Transcription
C Liles Wife Married Female 30 1861 Beer Retailer Gloucester
Transcription
H Liles Son Single Male 8 1883 - Middlesex, England
Transcription
A Liles Daughter Single Female 13 1878 - Surrey, England
Transcription
F Liles Daughter Single Female 10 1881 - Surrey, England
Transcription
H Mauntler Lodger Single Male 39 1852 Pot Man Greenwich


could henry be carolines child

Henry Liles Private 35046, 23rd Battalion, Northumberland Fusiliers (4th Tyneside Scottish Battalion). Henry Walker Liles was born in 1882 in Paddington, London, to Frederick and Caroline Liles. He had two younger sisters and grew up in a succession of Public Houses as his father was a publican.By 1911 Henry had married Lilian and was a licensed victualler….a publican, like his father, and they lived at 62, Akerman Street, Brixton. Later on Caroline, now widowed, and Lilian lived at The Nags Head, near Earlswood Common and this was probably Henry’s last address.Henry enlisted in Acton and it is not known how he came to join a northern based Regiment. The 4th Tyneside Scottish came under orders of 102nd Brigade, 34th Division and landed in France in January 1916. The Tyneside Scottish first saw action in the Battle of the Somme when, on 1st July 1916, they lost 629 men (19 officers and 610 other ranks), the third worst battalion loss of the day. It is unlikely that Henry had joined the battalion by this time and he was probably in the draft that supplied replacements for men killed in this action.In April and May 1917 the battalion was in action at the Battle of Arras where they sustained 275 casualties and it seems certain that Henry received the wounds from which he died in this battle. In the thirty-nine days that the battle lasted, the average casualty rate was far higher than at either the Somme or Passchendaele. Henry was taken to the 8th Casualty Clearing Station where he died from his wounds on 11th June 1917, aged 35.Henry Liles is buried at Duisans British Cemetery, near Etrun, about 2 miles north west of Arras.

This flipping name is getting more confusing now. I am 100% sure that Henry Walker Liles is the son of Frederick Cooper Liles and Jane albeit Jane died in 1884 and Frederick married again to Caroline Hutchinson. The Henry Walker Liles gives his mother as being Caroline. Am still trying to find a marriage for Henry to Lilian. I will try and paste an article about Henry that has been found.

Kathryn

There can't be many of them with that name born around that time ??

What about this birth as 'Cooper'-Liles rather than Walker Lisles - it seems to make more sense??


COOPER-LILES, HENRY mmn CONROY Order
GRO Reference: 1881 D Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 851

When did the name 'Walker' start to appear?

Dea x

LILES, ALICE EMMA COOPER BULLOCK Order
GRO Reference: 1878 J Quarter in SAINT SAVIOUR SURREY Volume 01D

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
41, Bankside, St Saviour Southwark, London, England

Learn more
Print transcription View image
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Frederick Liles Head Married Male 32 1849 Engine Driver City of London, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Jane Liles Wife Married Female 34 1847 - City of London, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Frederick Liles Son Single Male 5 1876 - City of London, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Alice Liles Daughter Single Female 3 1878 - City of London, Middlesex, England
Transcription
Florie Liles Daughter Single Female 1 1880 - City of London, Middlesex, England

Sorry, I believe at the beginning I'd said that Henry's mother was Caroline. She was, in fact, his step mother.

Kathryn

Thank you all for your input. Frederick Cooper Liles did marry twice. He was married to Jane and then married Caroline. Henry was the last child he had with Jane.

Kathryn