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I wouldn't have ordered the 1976 certificate. Based on his DOB it didn't seem, as you suggested, the most likely. That Arthur is on the 1939 register living in Bristol.

I don't see an Ernest on the 1939 register woth DOB of the 15th- there is however this one listed as the 14th:

Roberts Household Marsh Lane Cottages , Newton Abbot R.D., Devon, England
Ernest Roberts 14 Dec 1891 Male Farmer Married
Gwendoline Roberts 08 Jul 1890 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
Gerald F Roberts 04 Sep 1926 Male At School Single
Ian E Roberts 06 Feb 1929 Male At School Single
Edwin C Roberts 04 Nov 1881 Male General Farm Worker Single
---------------------------------------------------------

Did you discount this death? It seems more likely to me:-

First name(s) ARTHUR
Last name ROBERTS
Gender Male
Birth year 1890
Age 67
Death quarter 3
Death year 1957
District Cardiff
County Glamorganshire
Volume 8B Page 128

I'm going to try this one, as Pat was convinced he was called Ernest, and birth date is exact match to Arthur Roberts. Depends on who registered this death and were they on holiday?


Name:
Ernest Roberts

Birth Date:
15 Dec 1891

Date of Registration:
Jun 1972

Age at Death:
80

Registration district:
Exeter

Inferred County:
Devon

Volume:
7a

Page:
1119

Name: Arthur Roberts
Birth: 1 Sep 1891
Death: Mar 1976 - South Glamorgan, South Glamorgan, Wales

Which death certificate did you order- just so we can eliminate it from further searches

The closest death certificate match to Arthur Roberts birth date is a fail. Birth registered by a son Reuben Arthur Roberts. He could have told fibs about his age till he passed away.

Just had a 30th minute call with Pat Snow and she provided the same address for Elizabeth Roberts (Moore) death certificate as Flat 41 Furness Close Ely, Cardiff. It is a Flat type building with number 41-44. She refused to believe the date being 1994 and still adamant she died in 1992 as she was at the funeral! Not sure if I should send her a copy or not? At least I could tell her Elizabeth's step boys names and why one couldn't attend funeral. Pat re-affirmed the step boys didn't want anything to do with Elizabeth but the facts highlight the boys were young men when she married. I've order the most likely Arthur Roberts death certificate to see if I can complete all the gaps.

Thank you for that excellent summary. I'll hopefully open a few more records myself and as I have progressed to wanting to know exact dates in my family tree a subscription will be worth the outlay. I have 2 extended family who moved to Rhodesia then South Africa I'd like to see the 1939 register opened on them but no idea of their death years and waited 3 months so far for their grandchildren to reply. Your grandfather was a character some family you can discover everything in a few hour others are a real challenge. My mother-in-law Elsie registered her own husband Ron's death with the wrong birth date and one of my wife's aunt's husbands registered his wife's sister with the wrong birth date. Her sisters were both born January.

Andy .............

The 1939 Register was continually updated re deaths and marriages (for women) from 1939 to about 1990/91 as it formed the basis for the NHS lists from 1947 on. No updating was done after that point until after the Register was transcribed for FMP.

A closed record on the 1939 Register means that the person was ...........

a) born after 1915 - 1925, and no death was recorded before 1990/91.

c) FMP is trying to update the Register by opening closed records using the Freebmd or GRO records and by people sending in proof that their relative was indeed dead. The latter means that the person wanting a record opening MUST send in the death certificate as proof.

d) There is little updating for people who emigrated, and this seems to apply even if they would be over 100 years of age .......... eg, my uncle was born in 1894 but died in Australia as did his wife and 3 of his daughters (2 daughters are still alive down under). All those records are closed. That applies even though he would now be about 123, because FMP will not get proof of his death from any UK record :-) I am not about to buy the Australian death certificates!

e) The 1939 Register was also updated until 1990/1991 when a woman married and changed her name. I have no idea as to whether FMP has any intention to attempt to do this.


Re Arthur's age ...............

people never do always tell the truth!!

He might have lied to Elizabeth. Then carried on with the age lie.

Remember much of the information on a death certificate is what is known to the informant, who may or may not be a relation. That means only what they have been told by the deceased, ie the information is hearsay.

I firmly believe that the only information you trust as being truly accurate on a death certificate is ................

a) Place and date of death
b) Cause of death
c) Name and address of doctor OR of Coroner
d) Date and place of inquest if held
e) Name, address and relationship of the informant.

Literally everything else, including the person's name, might well be inaccurate.

For example .............. my grandfather told all his family that he was born on December 25, and we all had to go visit him on Christmas Day "because". The year varied from 1883 or 1884. His son registered his death with the birth date of 25 December 1894. <<<< EDIT:- meant to write 1884

THEN son found a birth certificate hidden away in a drawer .......... Grandfather was actually born January 9 1885. I think he must have had to get that when he was drafted in WW1, and hidden it away.

I have his birth and death certificates, and also his marriage certificate where both he and grandmother lied about their ages ........... grandfather said he was 19 when he was really 17, and grandmother said she was 20 when she was really 19. Those seemed useless lies as a) their fathers and other family members were at the wedding, and b) they were still under age!

AustinQ, I have got a free trial with Find My Past but learnt something new with the 1939 register, and gap in census records 1921 to 1951! But have to invest more for full access. I am confused with the closed records thou. Only one near match for Arthur Roberts b 1 Sept 1891 d 1976 South Glamorgan, so did he even lie in 1939 or did he lie to Elizabeth his wife till he passed away!

Using "Find My Past" was the answer to how you discovered him living at the address and his age. I'll be trying that site on this case and some more relative mysteries.

I have to go out, but will come back to this.

I'm not sure what you mean about sharing the search engine that helps to narrow the evidence of living to Kingarth Street? The evidence of him living at Kingarth Street came from the details you supplied from the 1946 marriage certificate.

By using that address to search the 1939 register on Find My Past, I found widowed Arthur living there.

Despite the marriage giving Arthur's DOB as c1898- it is shown on the 1939 register that his DOB was 15 December 1891. I suspect he lied to narrow the large age gap between him and Elizabeth.
-------------------------------------

Arthur E Taylor was still at 3 Ovington Terrace in 2003 with his wife.

Austin Q, I ordered the Elizabeth Mary Roberts death certificate and the place of her birth recorded pushes the evidence that this is the Elizabeth Moore b 11/5/1914. Certificate states maiden name Moore and place of birth West Bromwich. She passed away 3rd July 1994 at University Hospital of Wales, Cardiff of Myocardial Infarction. Her address being 41 Furness Close Ely, Cardiff. and Widow of ....ROBERTS .... so Arthur Edward Taylor who registered death was unaware of her husbands name. Or they were connected to hospital or a family friend living at 3 Ovington Terrace, Llandaff, Cardiff which is a short distance from her home. It suggests Pats memory is not as good compared to the factual evidence. Assuming she did marry her husband Arthur in 1946 I am struggling to see/find the 1939 or pre1994 records to who and how long they lived at these addresses. No luck with Genes Reunited or Ancestry search's. I would like to discover her husband death record as his 1946 wedding states he was 48, this puts his birth at 1898. Before I order his 1st marriage could you share the search engine that helps you narrow down the evidence of living to 17 Kingarth Street? The two boys I get Leonard passed away 1977 and Alfred 73 at her death so explains why the 2 boys did not attend the funeral.

Well spotted I corrected Sarah's mother's maiden name to Evans based on Pat's feedback and based on doing the GRO search before Christmas. Next time I'll double check if they lived! I never corrected the rest of the family group so looked like I had it correct first time! The 2 of April 1911 wedding cert of Ernest Moore & Elizabeth Hood age 24 & 25 respectively doesn't say Ann and get her birth back to 1886, James Hood her father was deceased. No names for the Evans but going to txt the person who has a different picture of them and see if anything was written on back of our family copy.

Sometimes to answer questions you have to go back a little further. To answer questions about what happened to Elizabeth's parents, and why the children were raised by other people, it's often useful to know who the correct parents are/ were- and then you can get accurate deaths/ family details.

The Hood/ Evans birth is unlikely to be correct:

Birth:
HOOD, ELIZABETH ANN (Mother's maiden name: EVANS)
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in WALSALL Volume 06B Page 644

Death:
HOOD, ELIZABETH ANN 0
GRO Reference: 1887 M Quarter in WALSALL Volume 06B Page 414
--------------------------------------

Do you have any names for the Evans?

Sometimes memories get a little muddled over time. Although there is often truth in the stories/ memories that people pass on, you cannot rely on there accuracy. I have been to many family funerals, and although I can often recall details/ stories about the deceased person, or details of the service and the people that were there, I would struggle to give an accurate date or year of death.

It's great that you have a contact that can pass on memories- ask as many questions as you can, record conversations, collect the photos etc- but be aware that they are memories and not necessarily fact.

I hope you find your bus driver- there are a couple of Ernest Roberts on the 1939 register that have bus related occupations. I don't see any connection yet but you might want to check them yourself. Just search 'Ernest Roberts' and in occupation put 'Bus'.

In my family tree I get Elizabeth Ann Moore (Hood) b Mar 1887 mother Sarah Evans, for GRO search. So if that is correct I can see an Evans connection. But my focus is on Ernest & Elizabeth 1st as Pat couldn't provide any history of why they were cared for by relatives than there birth parents.

1891
: Elizebeth Jones
[Elizebeth Hood]
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation: Daughter
Mother's name: Sarah Jones
Gender: Female
Where born: West Bromwich, Staffordshire, England
Civil Parish: West Bromwich
Ecclesiastical parish: St John

JAMES
Last name HOOD
Gender Male
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1856
Age 33
Death quarter 1
Death year 1889
District West Bromwich
County Staffordshire
Volume 6B
Page 501
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Registration district: West Bromwich
Sub registration district: West Bromwich South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2267
Folio: 139
Page Number: 3
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Jones 73 ----- widow
Sarah Jones 35
William Jones 13
Joseph Jones 9
Elizebeth Jones 5

1901
Name: Elizabeth Hood
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1885
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Mother: Sarah Hood
Birth Place: West Bromwich, Staffordshire, England
Civil Parish: West Bromwich
Search Photos: Search for 'West Bromwich' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Evangelist
Town: West Bromwich
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Street address:
Registration district: West Bromwich
Sub-registration district: West Bromwich South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 09
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2719
Folio: 42
Page Number: 37
Household schedule number: 212
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Hood 46
Wm Hood 23
Joseph Hood 19
Elizabeth Hood 16
Unnamed Infant Hood 1/12

1911
Name: Elizabeth Hood
Age in 1911: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: West Bromwich, Staffordshire
Civil Parish: West Bromwich
Search Photos: Search for 'West Bromwich' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Staffordshire
Country: England
Street address: 45 Hall St, West Bromwich
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Home Duties
Registration district: West Bromwich
Registration District Number: 371
Sub-registration district: West Bromwich South West
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Household schedule number: 126
Piece: 17288
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Hood 55 --- widow
William Hood 31
Joseph Hood 29
Elizabeth Hood 25
Florrie Hood 6


First name(s) SARAH
Last name JONES
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1875
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ SARAH JONES married one of these people
William Fisher, James Hood
District West Bromwich
District number -
County Staffordshire
Country England
Volume 6B
Page 927

I'm not understanding where the Evans surname/ grandparents comes from.

I would assume closed records are father Percy & daughter Patricia. I struggle with that search and couldn't find that address. I have a number of photographs of the Evans, they lived with Percy & Harriet for a while then moved to live with another family and live in a caravan outside that House. They shortly died after that, so never got around to registering to vote? That part of the family history has even less leads but in 2021 I might get a clue for that one..

There are 2 closed records at 11 Fisher Road, one listed after Harriet and another listed after Kenneth.

1939 for fisher road
11 Fisher Road , Oldbury M.B., Worcestershire, England
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First name(s) Last name(s) DOB Sex Occupation Marital status Schedule Schedule Sub Number
Harriet M Woodward 17 Sep 1911 Female Unpaid Domestic Duti Married 110 1
Kenneth Woodward 28 Dec 1938 Male Under School Age Single 110 3

one closed record