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Ah! Back to the drawing board then!

Worth keeping in mind though RG- it wouldn't be the first time the date is a little out on the 1939.

However, that fact he was Christened and then Baptised some years later with the same birth date, indicates that they were sure of the date.

I have been wondering if John was registered as John West and perhaps Girvan was a stepfather's surname but I'm not having much success with that.

I also wondered if father Joseph, a soldier was a red herring.

I'm with you RG. I also had the same thoughts.

Sounds like Alan's family could hold a little more information re his adoption. Sometimes tiny things hold the key.

Oh Lord this is getting confusing for me....

.......Upon the near death of Alan Terence Foley in 1992 (Birth child of John West Girvan and Audrey Hallsworth),

Three men turned up to pay their respects and these were said to be the Girvan Brothers' from nearby. My cousin who was present said the family resemblance to his Father and the Girvan Brothers was unmistakable, even though they were unknown to him.

I can only think that John W Girvan (Alan T Foleys' Birth Father could possibly be an Uncle to these Brothers? He certainly was connected in some way, my puzzle is that he isn't mentioned at Churchdown Street and his Father was named as Joseph Girvan, on his marriage Cert;

I am struggling to keep a grip on the generation levels

A Joseph...(but probably not relating!, lol)

Chris :)

Marriages Sep 1890 (>99%)
---------------------------------------------------
GIRVIN Joseph Manchester 8d 307
Walsh Martha Manchester 8d 307


County Lancashire
Place Manchester
Church name St John - Deansgate
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 735
Baptism date 08 Aug 1897
Birth date 15 Jul 1897
Person forename Charles Edward
Person sex
Person abode 100 Quay St
Father forename Joseph
Father surname GIRVIN
Father occupation Lamp lighter
Mother forename Martha


Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Manchester
Church name St John - Deansgate
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 91
Baptism date 30 Nov 1892
Birth date 20 Nov 1892
Person forename Joseph
Person sex
Person abode 100 Quay St
Father forename Joseph
Father surname GIRVIN
Father occupation Lamp lighter
Mother forename Martha

https://www.freereg.org.uk/

(looking at Girvan variants on above, Henry Hugh there also)


http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

(above useful also)


Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1892

GIRVAN Henry C West Derby Municipal Liverpool WDM/66/21

GIRVAN Henry H West Derby Municipal Liverpool WDM/66/4


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1918

GIRVAN Henry E SUTTON Georgina E Walton, St. Mary Liverpool 2012WD/22/96

(if that was the Henry C one above)


Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1920

GIRVAN Henry GRISDALE Elizabeth West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended


Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Liverpool
Church name St Peter
Register type Unspecified
Baptism date 27 Aug 1895
Birth date 29 Jan 1892
Person forename Henry Hugh
Person abode Mildred St.
Father forename Frederick
Father surname GIRVAN
Father occupation Cork Cutter
Mother forename Elizabeth


Baptism
County Lancashire
Place Liverpool
Church name St Philip
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 1745
Baptism date 31 Aug 1873
Person forename Frederick Hugh
Person abode Mulberry St
Father forename Henry
Father surname GIRVAN
Father occupation Book Keeper
Mother forename Mary


Baptism
County Lancashire
Place (Liverpool
Church name St Philip
Register type Unspecified
Register entry number 1790
Baptism date 19 Aug 1877
Birth date 28 Jul 1877
Person forename Jessie
Person abode Bamber Street
Father forename Henry
Father surname GIRVAN
Father occupation Book Keeper
Mother forename Mary

Interestingly, Henry Girvan and Elizabeth (Grisdale) had several sons- it seems the family remained in the area that Alan lived:

Frederick Girvan born 1 qtr 1921
Frederick died 1922

Thomas H Girvan born 4 qtr 1924 Liverpool
(Thomas died Knowsley 1989)

Joseph Girvan born 2 qtr 1926 Liverpool

William Girvan born 4 qtr 1929 West Derby
(William died Knowsley 1998)

George A Girvan 1932 4 qtr West Derby
(George died 1933)

Looking over some correspondence that Alan T Foleys' oldest son sent me. He says Alan was brought to Liverpool aged 18mnths from Harrogate in the charge of a nurse and given to the Foleys to foster. He was formerly adopted at the juvenile court in Croshall St in Liverpool in 1927. The only connection that my Cousin came up with is that Alan T's adopted Father John worked on the Docks at a place called Bibbys, with some of the Girvan Brothers. They lived across the road from the Foleys in Churchdown Road and John Foleys' wife visited the Girvans often. Alan Foley thought nothing of it because it wasn't until much later in his life he found out he was born Alan Girvan.

I have a marriage between J.W.Girvan and Annie Cormode in W.Derby Liverpool in 1927.......can this be my Grandfather??

(saw below)

Chris :)

19 March 1945 - Liverpool Echo - Liverpool, Merseyside, England

Death
GIRVAN - March 16th, at 147, Churchdown Road, Liverpool 14, aged 53 years, HENRY, beloved husband of Elizabeth and father of Henry (R N.), Joe (Army), Bily and Elsie Interment at West Derby Cemetery, on Wednesday next, at 2 p.m.

(as below)

Chris :)

1939 Register (Find My Past)

84 Finborough Road , Liverpool C.B., Lancashire,
John W Girvan 16 Dec 1907 Male Gas Smith Labourer Heavy Worker Married
Annie Girvan 31 Dec 1908 Female Typist Commission Agents Married
Mary A Cormode 05 Dec 1886 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Widowed

Births Mar 1908 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------
Girvan John W W. Derby 8b 514a

Death
First name(s) JOHN WILLIAM
Last name GIRVAN
Gender Male
Birth day 16
Birth month 12
Birth year 1907
Death quarter 4
Death year 1985
District Liverpool
Register number 1185
County Lancashire
Volume 36
Page 622

Thank you Chris I can scrap that line of thought John W (William) Girvan wrong time frame for my Grandfather......there really seem to be a lot of Girvans in that area...I still feel their ancestors may have originated from across the Irish sea!

The task may become impossible but I find it fascinating and sometimes sad, but the sociological side is so interesting.

regards Pat

I don't have a lot of time today, but wanted to post these to save me searching for them later- it's the only John I can spot born Belfast with father Joseph:

Joseph Girvan and Agnes Dickie married 23 Dec 1890 Belfast.

Robert Girvan
born 13 September 1891
Address: 22 Douglas Street
Father: Joseph Girvan (labourer)
Mother: Agnes Girvan (formerly Dickey)

John Girvin
born 23 November 1893
Address: Woodstock Road, Belfast
Father: Joseph Girvin (Labourer)
Mother: Agnes Girvin (formerly Dickey)

William Girvan 1896 (can see index but can't find image)

Joseph Girvin
born 7 November 1898
Address: 60 May Flower Street, Belfast
Father: Joseph Girvin (Driller)
Mother: Agnes Girvin (formerly Dickie)

Harriet Girvan
born 14 January 1900
Address: 14 Belmont Street
Father: Joseph Girvan (Labourer)
Mother: Agnes Girvan (formerly Dickey)
-----------------------------------------

Father, Joseph dies on 21 September 1900 at 21 Tamery Street, Belfast

The family matches this family posted earlier by Chris Ho:-

1911:
Residents of a house 47 in Percy Street (Wood Vale Ward, Antrim)
Girvan Agnes 45 Female Head of Family Church of Ireland Belfast City Widow
Girvan Robert 19 Male Son Church of Ireland Belfast City Apprentice Carpenter Single
Girvan John 17 Male Son Church of Ireland Belfast City Labourer Unemployed Single
Girvan William 15 Male Son Church of Ireland Belfast City Apprentice Iron moulder Single
Gilmore Margaret 23 Female Relative Methodist Canada Sample Worker Single
Kirkpatrick Andrew 28 Male Visitor Presbyterian Belfast City Wood Working Mechinist Married
Kirkpatrick Ellen E 24 Female Visitor Presbyterian Canada Married
Kirkpatrick Harriet 1 Female Visitor Presbyterian Belfast City -

Also wondered about this John?

1939
Girvin Household 20 Skirving Street , Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England

Sarah J Girvin 17 Feb 1896 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married
John Girvin 03 Nov 1894 Male Carter (Horse) Married
Closed Record

John and Sarah didn't marry until 1933:

First name(s) JOHN
Last name GIRVIN
Marriage quarter 2
Marriage year 1933
Spouse: Sarah J Higham
District West Derby
County Lancashire
Volume 8B Page 795

Reply to AustinQ

Can you tell me could John Girvan have added his Fathers' name to his wedding cert, if he was deceased and not present? Forgive my lack of knowledge but I assume he could but I am not sure?
Regards Pat

Father's names are added to marriage certificates whether they are present or not. They are also added even if deceased.

Sometimes marriage certificates might indicate if a father was deceased- but many times this is not the case, and there was no requirement to record if a father was deceased.

And, of course, the father's details are only the information given by the bride or groom and not necessarily the same as the details on the bride or groom's birth registration!

Thank you for confirming the matter of names on Certificates I appreciate the replies

regards Pat Girvan

Another thread started now - with no reference to this one!!!!!!!

https://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1387750