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Hi syviaincanada, yes I think it would have been quite shocking especially in 1911 but Doris seems to have been kept within the family in some way despite being born at the mother and baby home which it appears at the time to have been pretty much "forcing " young mothers to have their babies adopted as adoptive parents were seemingly donating £50 to the home for each adopted baby, quite an income at that time! Just need all my certificates now to confirm that we are on the right line!

Buying her birth certificate will almost certainly solve the problem for you.

I know of a similar situation ............ someone born in the 1940s who grew up believing someone was his aunt but then discovered in the 1960s that she was actually his half-sister, born in the 1920s, before his mother's later marriage.

It took some adjusting for him to accept the change in relationship, but they ended up living together until she died.

It was considered a "deep dark secret" by some members of the family and spoken of in whispers, other family members knew about it and spoke openly about amongst themselves!


It was not an unusual situation ............ grandparents raising a daughter's child as their own and thus "saving face", though I'm not sure how secret such an event would be amongst the neighbours!

Thanks so much for your help Jude, there is so.much to learn but it's always good to learn new things! Sorry for your losses and thank you for explaining. :-)

In the 1939 register anyone who is believed to have been alive in 1995 is closed (big black redaction through it). They will open it up if you can prove the person is deceased (or close it if the person is still alive)!

My mum, who died in 2012, and my dad, who died in 2016, were closed records. I have had them opened up by sending their death certificates. Conversely, one of my cousins who is 88 this year and my father-in-law who is 83 this year were both showing on the records so I have had them closed :-)

Jude

I don't have the certificates yet, think I need to order a few to get the answers but everyone has been so helpful in getting me this far. Could you explain what a closed record is? I'm somewhat of an amateur!

Yes Mary that has to be the correct birth...and it confirms she is one of the closed entries on the 1939 register.

Rebecca, the birth certificate will confirm it is Ethel who is her mother but I suspect no father will be named. Did she name anyone as father on her marriage certificates?

Jude

Hi jude, my grandmother was Elizabeth Davis (Hughes) b 1920. Yes as children they were told that Doris was the Aunt but in later years it was found out (by my grans sister Ethel) that Doris was actually their sister and Ethel Lyon Hayes had her while young before she met and married Hugh.
But Doris was always in touch with her mother and family so I'm unsure who she thought of as her parents.
Hope that all makes sense! Lots of family rumours which would be nice to prove true or otherwise!

Nice work Mary :)

Frederick W Sagar married Minnie Jones in Oswestry Shropshire 1956.

Minnie Sagar 1906-1963 probate 1964 to Frederick Wallace Sagar.

Doris Hayes or Sagar married Frank A Mullins in kent 1952 5b 81

Doris Mullins 13/12/1910 died Oxfordshire 2003.


So it looks like the birth 08b 311 West Derby could be correct?

Maryb.

Your opening post says you have Doris on two marriage certificates- are you saying she married twice? Who was her second marriage to? When, where did she die?

Name: Frederick Wallace Sagar
Birth Date: 14 Dec 1900
Date of Registration: Dec 1971
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Oswestry
Inferred County: Shropshire
Volume: 9a Page: 314

SAGAR, Frederick Wallace of 44 Brookfields, Woston Rhyn Oswestry, Salop died 21 November 1971 Administration, London 1 March.

Here's Frederick Sagar in 1939

5 Rhoswiel , Oswestry R.D., Shropshire, England

Frederick W Sagar 14 Dec 1900 Male Colliery Haulage Hand Below Heavy Worker Married 288 1
Kenneth Sagar 31 May 1938 Male Under School Age Single 288 4

And Kenneth's mother's maiden name was Hayes. She must be one of the closed records

Jude

Rebecca,

Am I reading it correctly that your grandmother believe Doris to be her aunt? Who was your gran?

Do you know who Doris married?

Jude

I'm amazed at the detective work, thank you all for your help, I have Doris marrying Frederick Sagar in 1933 in Oswestry. The 1939 census is correct as my mother grew up in Coney Green so we are definitely on the right track. :-D

Which takes us back to this birth that Greyghost posted

HAYES, DORIS GRO Reference: 1910 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 311

Jude

With this being the corresponding 1911 census

Name: Doris Hayes
Age in 1911: 3/12
Estimated birth year: abt 1911
Relation to Head: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: West Derby
Search Photos: Search for 'West Derby' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 32 Tweed St Liverpool
Registration district: West Derby
Registration District Number: 455
Sub-registration district: West Derby Eastern
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Piece: 22615
Household Members:
Name Age
Isabela Davis 44
Thos Davis 18
Wm Davis 10
Margaret Hayes 20
John Hayes 22
Doris Hayes 3/12


Jude

51 Ottley Street , Liverpool C.B., Lancashire, England

Doris Owens (Hayes) 13 Jan 1911 Female Time & Wages Clerk Single 98 3
John Hayes 28 Dec 1888 Male Toolroom Fitter Married 98 1
Margaret E Hayes 02 Jul 1891 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 98 2

I think this is the birth Malyon posted....and Kath endorsed...so not "our" Doris

Jude

Who did Doris marry and when ? - she may be found on the 1939 register which will give a DOB

Just in case you don't have the 1939 register for Ethel who married Hugh in 1916 (her age seems to have slipped a bit on the transcription, but looking at the original I think there are a couple of ink blots over the 4 making it look like a 9!)

Richard V Hayes is her uncle (brother to her Father William Meadows Hayes)

Hughes Household (5 People)
42 Coney Green , Oswestry M.B., Shropshire, England

FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Ethel L Hughes 22 Feb 1899 Female Laundry Work And Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 279 1
Hugh Hughes 04 Oct 1892 Male Motor Engineer Married 279 2
Elizabeth Davis (Hughes) 04 Sep 1920 Female Laundry Work Owner Single 279 3
Richard V Hayes 05 Jun 1869 Male Tailor Master Widowed 279 7
Joseph Stacey 19 Jan 1883 Male Carpenter & Joiner Single 279 8

There are 3 closed records after Elizabeth b Bangor, Caernarvon- probably the children b 1922 Conway, Caernarvon (Benjamin who died 2010 as per an Ancestry tree), and 2 others 1925 ? Bangor and 1929 Oswestry

Doesn't help with Doris (she might have been there with a DOB conveniently showing)

Martha Quinn
England and Wales Census, 1881
Name
Martha Quinn
Event Type
Census
Event Date
1881
Event Place
Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
Registration District
Whitehaven
Residence Note
Burmeats Terrace
Gender
Female
Age
16
Marital Status (Original)
Single
Occupation
Textile Saleswoman (Fancy Goods)
Relationship to Head of Household
Daughter
Birth Year (Estimated)
1865
Birthplace
Whitehaven, Cumberland, England


Mary Quinn
Wife Head
F
42
Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
Mary J Quinn
Daughter
F
18
Whitehaven, Cumberland, England
Martha Quinn
Daughter
F
16
Whitehaven, Cumberland, England

parents marriage

Marriages Jun 1888   (>99%)

Hayes
 William Meadows
 
 Whitehaven
 10b
907
  
Quinn
 Martha
 
 Whitehaven
 10b
907