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Name: Caroline Rumble
Baptism Date: 18 Aug 1898
Baptism Place: Everton, St Polycarp, Lancashire, England
Father: William Rumble..............Labourer
Mother: Mary Elizabeth Rumble
Address; 79, Gordon Street

RUMBLE, CAROLINE (MMN) OWENS
GRO Reference: 1898 M Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 332

Deaths Sep 1899 (>99%)
Rumble Caroline 1 W. Derby 8b 410

Name: Sarah Elizabeth Hibbett
[Sarah Elizabeth Hibbert]
[Sarah Elizabeth Owens]
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 38
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1881
Marriage Date: 15 Sep 1919
Marriage Place: Liverpool, All Saints, Lancashire, England
Father: William Owens
Spouse: James Jenkins

Name: William Rumble
Age: 11
Estimated birth year: abt 1840
Relation: Son
Father's name: William Rumble
Mother's name: Sophia Rumble
Gender: Male
Where born: East Ilsley, Berkshire, England
Civil Parish: East Ilsley
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England
Registration district: Wantage
Sub-registration district: Wantage
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 71
Piece: 1689
Folio: 433
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
William Rumble 44
Sophia Rumble 39
Harriet Rumble 16
Elizabeth Rumble 15
Caroline Rumble 14
Eliza Rumble 13
William Rumble 11
Mary A Rumble 10
Ruth Rumble 7
Thomas Rumble 6
Hannah Rumble 5
Sarah Rumble 3
Lucy Rumble 1

1891

Name: William Rumble
Gender: Male
Age: 48
Relationship: Head
Birth Year: 1843
Spouse: Mary E Rumble
Child: Sarah E Rumble
William Rumble
Mary J Rumble
Thomas Rumble
Birth Place: Liverpool
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
Residence Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Registration district: Liverpool
Sub registration district: St Martin
ED, Institution or Vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2900
Folio: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
William Rumble 48
Mary E Rumble 30
Sarah E Rumble 9
William Rumble 7
Mary J Rumble 4
Thomas Rumble 2/12


RUMBLE, THOMAS (MMN) OWENS
GRO Reference: 1891 J Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 4


Name: Thomas Rumble
Age: 0
Birth Date: 29 Jan 1891
Baptism Date: 22 Feb 1891
Baptism Place: Scotland Road, St Matthews Church, Lancashire, England
Father: William Rumble........Labourer
Mother: Elizabeth Rumble
Address: 19, Mould Street

1901

Name: Mary J Rumble
Age: 14
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation to Head: Daughter
Gender: Female
Mother: Mary E Rumble
Birth Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Polycarp
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: North Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 06
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3474
Folio: 13
Page Number: 18
Household schedule number: 116a
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary E Rumble 40
William Rumble 17
Mary J Rumble 14
Thomas Rumble 10
Henry Rumble 5

RUMBLE, HENRY (MMN) OWENS
GRO Reference: 1895 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 465

????????????
1871

Name: Mary Elizth Pevens
[Mary Elizth Owens]
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: 1861
Relation: Granddaughter
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool Lancashire England
Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 89
Household schedule number: 123
Piece: 3823
Folio: 107
Page Number: 28
Household Members:
Name Age
Elias Allen Croft 59
Rosina Croft 55
John Croft 18
Mary Elizth Pevens 10


OWENS, MARY ELIZABETH (MMN) CROFT
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 310

Name: Rose Masterson
[Rose McCalpin]
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: Full Age
Event Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 22 Jan 1856
Marriage Place: Toxteth, St James, Lancashire, England
Father: Hugh McCalpin
Spouse: Elias Allen Croft

Name: Rose Croft
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: 1816
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: EliasCroft
Gender: Female
Where born: Belfast, Ireland
Civil Parish: Everton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Chrysostom
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 29
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Piece: 2714
Folio: 83
Page Number: 15
Household Members:
Name Age
Elias Croft 49
Rose Croft 45
Joseph Croft 19
Ann Masterson 12 Stepdaughter to Elias
Mary Croft 11
John Croft 8

With FIRST wife

1851
Name: Eliza A Croft
[Elias A Croft]
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1812
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth Croft
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Kirkdale
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 2h
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 122
Piece: 2190
Folio: 519
Page Number: 30
Household Members:
Name Age
Eliza A Croft 39
Elizabeth Croft 37
Ann J Croft 11
Joseph Croft 9
Elia A Croft 7
Mary Jane Croft 1 9 Mo


Name: Elias Allen Croft
Gender: Male
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 28 Jul 1834
Parish: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Spouse: Elizabeth Garratt
Register Type: Bishop's Transcript

CROFT, JOSEPH PARRAT
GRO Reference: 1842 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 379

CROFT, ELIAS GARRETT GARRETT
GRO Reference: 1844 D Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 453

CROFT, MARY JANE GARRETT
GRO Reference: 1849 S Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 20 Page 918

George -

I agree with all that Erika has posted above.

However, we have both found it confusing, because there seem to be no records for things that would link all the bits together.

To try to explain:

We can't find a record of the birth of Sarah Elizabeth Owens, who married Thomas Charles Hibbert.
She is called Rumble in the 1891 census, but she married as Owens.

Her mother seems to have been Mary Elizabeth Owens, who appears NOT to have married William Rumble (or anybody at all) , but who is listed as his wife in 1891 and 1901.
In 1901 he is not with her and the children - he is in the Walton Workhouse - but she is still using the name Rumble.
In 1911 he is with Sarah and her Hibbert family, listed as widowed.

This MIGHT be Mary's death, but you'd need to buy the cert to find out:

.Deaths Jun 1907 (>99%)
OWENS Mary 47 W. Derby 8b 327

This looks like William's death:

Deaths Dec 1913 (>99%)
Rumble William 74 W.Derby 8b 441



In 1891 William and Mary have the children Sarah E, William, Mary J, and Thomas with them.
In 1898 they had a daughter Caroline, who died the following year.
In 1901 Mary Elizabeth also has another son Henry with her.

Erika has posted the births of Caroline, Thomas and Henry.
However, we can't find the births of Sarah E or Mary J, not as Rumble and not as Owens. Nor definitely for the son William.
There's a possible birth record for the son William, in early 1883 as Owens, but it seems too early, as the censuses say he was born 1884.
It may be that their mother was with another partner and using his name, and so the children's births may have been registered in his name - but we don't know what that name might be.



Sarah Elizabeth was listed as Rumble in 1891, married as Owens in 1899, and has William Rumble living with her in 1911.

When she married, she named her father as William Robert Owens. This may be an invention, to look respectable on her marriage cert - or might be an assumption on the part of the registrar.
I assume that she was born before her mother and William Rumble got together, and that her real father was not William Rumble - BUT I don't know.


__________________________

Erika has also posted the 1841 census for William Rumble with his parents William and Sophia.

She has also posted the 1871 census for Mary Elizabeth Owens with her grandparents Rosina and Elias Allen Croft.
Also Mary's birth in 1860.

Rosina was Elias Croft's second wife. His first wife was Elizabeth Garrett/Garratt.
Records showing that are also posted above.

Yes i couldnt get my head around it either and im an amatuer,
But thanks for exsplaining great job.....
Thanks

We are ALL amateurs.

It took a lot of effort to find the info I posted

I think this is the marriage of the daughter Mary J Rumble (also reverted to Owens):

Mary Jane Owens
in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1935
Name: Mary Jane Owens
Gender: Female
Marriage Age: 19
Event Type: Marriage
Birth Year: abt 1885
Marriage Date: 23 Jul 1904
Marriage Place: Liverpool, St Peter, Lancashire, England
Parish as it Appears: Liverpool
View this parish
Father: William Owens, labourer
Spouse: Thomas Holden , miller


Mary Fane Holden
in the 1911 England Census
Name: Mary Fane Holden
[Mary Jane Holden]
Age in 1911: 25
Estimated birth year: abt 1886
Relation to Head: Wife
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Everton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 100 Beatrice Street Lpool
Marital status: Married
Occupation: Emido Mills
Registration district: West Derby
Registration District Number: 455
Sub-registration district: North Everton
ED, institution, or vessel: 03
Piece: 22486
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Holden 27 - flour labourer at Emido Mills.
Mary Fane Holden 25
Minnie Holden 6
Mary Elizabeth Holden 5

Note name of younger child.


Emido Mills made Flourine, a vegetable flour for making paste (glue):
https://tinyurl.com/y7tlzaxb


The younger daughter's baptism:

Mary Elizabeth Holden
in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1919
Name: Mary Elizabeth Holden
Birth Date: 6 Jan
Baptism Date: 28 Feb 1906
Baptism Place: Everton, St Polycarp, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Holden
Mother: Mary Jane Holden


And the older child:

Minnie Holden
in the Liverpool, England, Church of England Baptisms, 1813-1919
Name: Minnie Holden
Age: 0
Birth Date: 10 Sep 1904
Baptism Date: 28 Sep 1904
Baptism Place: Everton, Christ Church, Lancashire, England
Father: Thomas Holden
Mother: Mary Jane Holden


Looks like Thomas and Mary Jane in 1939, with later children:

Mary J Holden
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Mary J Holden
Gender: Female
Marital status: Married
Birth Date: 25 Apr 1886
Residence Year: 1939
Address: 53 Melbourne Street
Residence Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Occupation: Unpaid Domestic Duties
Schedule Number: 79
Sub Schedule Number: 6
Enumeration District: NIMF
Registration district: 455/5.
Household Members:
Name
Thomas Holden - paint mixing, 10/3/1883
George Holden - 28/8/1914, glass worker
William Holden - 30/5/1916, oil blender
This record is officially closed.
Albert E Holden - 23/4/1931
Mary J Holden
Eleanor M Holden - 4/9/1923, cardboard box works, sorter


HOLDEN, GEORGE mms OWENS
GRO Reference: 1914 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 832

Births Jun 1931
Holden Albert E Owens W.Derby 8b 972

Births Sep 1923 (>99%)
Holden Eleanor M Owens W.Derby 8b 860


I can't see the son William's birth.


They had other children, at least two of whom died in infancy - I haven't investigated them all:

Births Sep 1911 (>99%)
HOLDEN Rose Owens W.Derby 8b 853

Death:
HOLDEN, ROSE 2
GRO Reference: 1913 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 571

Births Jun 1913 (>99%)
Holden Thomas Owens W.Derby 8b 884

Death:
HOLDEN, THOMAS 0
GRO Reference: 1913 D Quarter in WEST DERBY Volume 08B Page 578

Also Hannah 1920 , Henry 1921, John 1925, Robert 1927.


Searching on the basis of the stated DOB for Mary Jane of 25 April 1886, there were no Mary Janes of any surname, with mms Owens, born in either Liverpool or West Derby in June quarter of 1886.


Deaths Sep 1949 (>99%)
Holden Mary J 64 Liverpool N. 10d 230

Her burial:

Mary Jane Holden
in the England & Scotland, Select Cemetery Registers, 1800-2016
Name: Mary Jane Holden
Age: 64
Record Type: Burial
Birth Date: abt 1885
Death Date: abt 1949
Burial Date: 28 Sep 1949
Burial Place: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Cemetery Section: Church of England

Address: 53 Melbourne Street - same as in 1939.

Thanks,great job,yes it must of been a lot of work for you,s.
Thank you so much,really appreciated........ :-)

You're welcome.

Hi again ive now got my head around it all,except for one part mary elizabeth prevens
Mary eliz owens born 1861.with her grandparents the croft family.
But who where her mother and father ? Or have i missed it.
Regards

RE- posting her birth

OWENS, MARY ELIZABETH (MMN) CROFT
GRO Reference: 1860 J Quarter in WEST DERBY AND TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 310

I'm sure the parents' marriage has been posted, but I'm not trawling to look for it.

Here it is - from freebmd, where you could have looked

Marriages Jun 1856 (>99%)
CROFT Elizabeth W.Derby 8b 620
OWEN Robert W Derby 8b 620



Name: Mary Elizabeth Owens
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 9 Apr 1860
Baptism Date: 30 Apr 1860
Baptism Place: Saint Peter,Liverpool,Lancashire,England
Father: Robert Owens
Mother: Elizabeth

:-) thanks

Hi according to genesreunited search and free bmd.
I have located alfred hibbert born 1892 frodsham cheshire, married maude grice birkenhead june 1922.
His father was charles henry hibber born warrington,1866/7.married mary ann walker.
In runcorn 1888.His father was i think George Hibbert born 1840, 5th oct....
He married Sarah Ann Grise in 1867 Runcorn,i think sarah ann grice was born frodsham cheshire,1846.i have census records for charles henry down to alfred.
But im struggling with george hibbert as there are so many george hibberts cheshire.
Looking for info on george hibbert and his father,and sarah ann grice,
From my searches on genesreunited i see alfred.....georges grandson married also into the grise family,
Regards :-)

I have most of the family living in the Frodsham area of Cheshire...
Charles henry was a school mater music teacher...
Regards :-)