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Edith ..........

Welcome back.

First, please remove your email address ............... GR discourages the posting of home email or other such contacts on the open boards. This is NOT a closed site, and so anything you post can be, and often is, picked up by Google, which means you are opening yourself to VERY unwelcome contacts.

Secondly, the way to contact Jule, as she seems not to have posted for the last year, is to send her a pm (personal message) through GR.

Just click on her name, and then send the message. You can give her your contact information then.

Hi Julie. I have just rejoined Genes Reunited and notice your post with interest. As I am a direct descendant of William Anderson and Annie Peatman and have been researching my Anderson family for some time, I can enlighten you on the history of John Peatman and Sarah Jane Anderson. If you are interesedt, please let me know. I can be contacted at [email protected]
Kind regards
Edith (Anderson) Thompson

Julie - There's a way of seeing all Ancestry's transcriptions for an English village.
This can be handy if I want all the cases where the forename is John, say.

Lets take an example village - Yealand Conyers, nr Carnforth, in north Lancs.
Yealand Conyers was in the Warton subdistrict of Lancaster Rego District.
If I had a b or d to rego, I'ld do this in Warton, not Lancaster - it was a dozen km closer.
If I look at a 1901 census for Yealand Conyers, across the bottom there's a PRO copyright slip - in 1901 it looks almost like it's part of the page, and on it it says rg13/3994.
(On other years, it might appear in the right margin, and would show other #s.
RG13 means the 1901 census the codes 1841-1911 were ho107 (low #s), ho107 , respectively(high #s), rg9-rg14 (and RG78 was the 1911 summary books)
3994 was a Warton piece # (Warton also had 3995). A piece # contained several EDs (enumerators' districts, each handled by one enumerator.
In 1901, Yealand Conyers was ED 13. Ancestry lets me limit my search by piece #, and (1851-1911), also by ED #.
In 1841 only, 5-ish EDs were grouped into a book - book 20 for Yealand Cnnyers, and the piece # was 531.
In 1841, the PRO copyright slip reads ho107/531/20.

As you might infer, 1841 was a bit different. It was organized using a difft system, and, for the level of detail we need, is best thought of as chaotic.
1911 is also difft, but there, the ED # is effectively incorporated into the piece #, so each piece # refers to one ordinary ED.
(I said ordinary as each institution and vessel in port is, technically, an ED, and several institutions are often grouped under one piece #.)

If I go thru Ancestry's browse process, I can see the ED #.
If I hd a sub, I could also look at the PRO copyright slip on the image, and get the piece #.
Lacking a sub, I can go to TNA:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
and do an advanced search for Yealand Conyers within ref RG13, and see:

Reference: RG 13/3994
Description: Registration Sub-District: Warton
Civil Parish, Township or Place:
Bolton le Sands
Priest Hutton
Silverdale
Slyne with Hest
Warton with Lindeth
Yealand Conyers
Yealand Redmayne

Incidentally, suppose I were searching in a bigger village, like Standish just N of Wigan.
This has 5 EDs which seems like a bit of a pain to search individually, so a look up at TNA gets me:

Reference: RG 13/3547
Description: Registration Sub-District: Standish
Civil Parish, Township or Place:Standish with Langtree

and
Reference: RG 13/3548
Description: Registration Sub-District: Standish
Civil Parish, Township or Place:
Gathurst, Parbold, Shevington, Worthington, Wrightington

Standish is also the subdistrict name (with 2 pieces), and the subdistrict includes 5 outlying small villages.
If I were interested in Standish village, I think I'ld just use the piece # and skip the EDs.

Thanks mgnv, will give this a try. I am more familiar with UK census data & have sometimes resorted to reviewing all the pages for a village where I can't find people but know where they should have been, but for a town that isn't practical.
I am guessing the census transcriptions for Canada on ancestry have been produced by OCR software, which doesn't handle some handwritten documents that well in my opinion - I've seen whole English villages that are a complete nonsense!
In the meantime it's back to the Euro 2016 footie for me.
Julie

Marriage to a half-niece was prohibited in the UK in the 1890s, and would be in Canada too, I think (but don't know).
http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570145.html

I was surprised that it's not the same now in Canada (since at least 1991):
Marriage (Prohibited Degrees) Act
S.C. 1990, c. 46
Assented to 1990-12-17
[Note: Act in force December 17, 1991.]
2(2) No person shall marry another person if they are related lineally, or as brother or sister or half-brother or half-sister, including by adoption.


=====================

I can' ind him in 1891 (I never really checked 1871 either)

There are 4 online indexes of Canadian censuses:
Ancestry,
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/list#page=1®ion=CANADA
http://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/census/Pages/census.aspx
and (for some years)
http://automatedgenealogy.com/census/index.html

The first 3 all use the Ancestry transcription. I don't have an Ancestry sub, but I find Ancestry the nicest site to search on, even if I don't see full details of the hit.
E.g., here's what I get in 1911 searching for Ra*l b 1889+/-2 in Quebec, living in Quebec with Keyword=Suffolk

Name Parent or spouse names Home in 1911 (Sub-District, District, Province) Birth Year Birth Place Relation
Radil Partonan Sidanie info, Labelle, Quebec 1890 location info

Once I know Rachel's name and age, I can look her up at LAC and get her image.

In actual fact, for 1911 I looked at AG in the surname list for Addington & Suffolk subdistrict, and that's the hit I posted early.
Clicking on the subdistrict # got me to the links page, where I clicked on the PDF link to LAC.
AG don't do 1891.

For 1921, I was getting too many hits, so I went to browse the subdistrict.
It opened on the title page,which gave ne the district/subdistrict #s - there were a lot of images, so I redid the search, limiting it to the district/subdistrict #s I'd just gotten.


There is one alternative way, at least in Montreal.
Now I've found John in Lovell, I can look up his street in Lovell, and see his neighbours.
If I can find the same neighbours on the census, maybe I can spot John with a badly mistranscribed surname, so:

Lovell
1889-1890
Peatman John, groceries and provisions, 679 St Catherine
Peatman William, 107 Dufresne
[My guess is less than 100 m apart]
1890-1891 Peatman John, grocer, 679 St Catherine
1891-1892 Peatman John, grocer 679 St Catherine, h 74 Iberville
1892-1893 ditto
1893-1894 ditto

As an example, here's me looking for Wm on Dufresne:

http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=pdf&id=30953_148212-00134
(113) 126 is Mary Donovan, V [= Veuve, i.e., widow]
(111) 128 is Joseph Dumas, forgeron, i.e., blacksmith
http://central.bac-lac.gc.ca/.item/?app=Census1891&op=pdf&id=30953_148212-00135
(105) 135 is J Bte Michaud, jounalier, i.e., labouror
(105 1/2) 137 is Alfred Desjardin, tailleur
[Key (Lovell St # 1889-1890) followed by 1891 census family #]

So, it looks like Wm has gone between being enumerated for Lovell, and 17/41891 when this census was taken - nominal census day was Mon 6/4/1891]

On d'Iberville, the first # N of: Ste Catherine is 72; Mignonne is 119; Logan is 147.
On Dufrsne, the first # N of: Ste Catherine is 56; Mignonne is 90; Logan is 121.

I don't know if Wm's dead or living with his son

How likely is Ancestry to mistranscribe a name - well at one time there were 100s of Hrenn's on their English census - you'ld think there was a wave of Ukrainian immigrants.
These are now all corrected,presumably to Wrenn, but there's still 60 Hnights there, to keep the Ukrainian flavour (I'm watching Germany beat Ukraine in the footy on TV right now)

I guess the family must be somewhere on the 1891 census, but so well hidden that I am not the only one that drew a blank. Does anyone out there have any suggestions of how to try and find them, given that standard searches don't reveal any possibilities?
I was aware of the other data respondents have quoted, except the 1921 census entry. My own tree "Perkins Family Tree" is on ancestry and shows the Sarah Jane Anderson I mention, she was the first born daughter of Ann(e) or Annie Peatman, who was the oldest child of William Peatman and Sarah Vassey. John Peatman was the youngest son of the same William Peatman and his second wife Fanny Burke. Thus Annie & John were half-siblings. I haven't added the marriage of Sarah Jane Anderson &John Peatman to my tree as I not yet convinced whether John married a different Sarah Jane Anderson, or did indeed marry his half neice. Such a marriage would currently only be legal in a limited number of locations. Whilst this appears to include modern day Canada, I haven't been able to establish whether this has historically been the case.
I have established that the marriage of John Peatman to a second wife, very shortly after the death of Sarah Jane, is the same John Peatman as the scans of church register marriage entries and baptism entries show signatures that are clearly the same person.

Still can't find the family in 1891. They're on a number of trees on Ancestry but none give the parentage of Sarah Jane Anderson.

Another son Thomas Vasey Peatman born 5 March 1887 and bapstised 4 May:

Thomas Vasey Peatman

in the Quebec, Canada, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1968
Record Image View

Name: Peatman
[Thomas Vasey Peatman]
Event: Baptême (Baptism)
Baptism Year: 1887
Baptism Location: Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Religion: Methodist
Place of Worship or Institution: Methodist East-End Lagauchetiere

I can't find them on the 91 census so thought I'd trey using childrens' names. This seems to be first child:

William John Peatman

in the Quebec, Canada, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1968
Record Image View

Name: Peatman
[William John Peatman]
Event: Baptême (Baptism)
Baptism Year: 1885
Baptism Location: Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Religion: Methodist
Place of Worship or Institution: Methodist East-End Lagauchetiere

Born 23 July and baptised 12 August.

Mother Sarah Jane died 2 August 1894 and was buried 4 August.


Sarah Jane Peatman

in the Quebec, Canada, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1968
Record Image View

Name: Peatman
[Sarah Jane Peatman]
Event: Enterrement (Burial)
Burial Year: 1894
Burial Location: Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Religion: Methodist
Place of Worship or Institution: Methodist East-End Lagauchetiere

Death of that daughter in 1894. She died 6 July and was buried 7 July and mother Sarah Jane was alive.

Sarah Jane Peatman

in the Quebec, Canada, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1968
Record Image View

Name: Peatman
[Sarah Jane Peatman]
Event: Enterrement (Burial)
Burial Year: 1894
Burial Location: Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Religion: Methodist
Place of Worship or Institution: Methodist East-End Lagauchetiere

There's this baptism of Sarah Jane Peatman, daughter of John Peatman & Sarah Jane Anderson born 6 May, 1894 and baptised 28 May 1894.

Sarah Jane Peatman

in the Quebec, Canada, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1968
Record Image View

Name: Peatman
[Sarah Jane Peatman]
[Sarah Jan Peatman]
Event: Baptême (Baptism)
Baptism Year: 1894
Baptism Location: Montréal, Québec (Quebec)
Religion: Presbyterian
Place of Worship or Institution: Presbyterian Taylor

Did Sarah Jane perhaps die in childbirth?

His second marriage? He's a widower,

John Teatman

in the Quebec, Canada, Vital and Church Records (Drouin Collection), 1621-1968
Record Image View

Name: John Teatman
[John Peatman]
Spouse: Annie Caldwell
Event: Mariage (Marriage)
Marriage Year: 1894
Marriage Location: Huntingdon, Québec (Quebec)
Place of Worship or Institution: Methodist, Presbyterian, Church of England

1861 http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/pdf/4108556_00188.pdf
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/pdf/4108556_00189.pdf [essentially blank]
Surname: Fealmon
Given Name: John
Gender: Male
Age: 2
Marital Status: Single
Place of Birth: Montreal L C
Religion: None
Province: Canada East (Quebec)
District Name: Montréal
Sub-District Name: Ste. Marie
Page Number: 200
Line Number: 4
Microfilm: C-1247
Item Number: 286894

http://bibnum2.bnquebec.ca/bna/lovell/
Montréal et sa banlieue [Montréal & its suburbs]
1861-1862 has entry:
Peatman, Wm., farmer, head of Dufresne.

A search at:http://www.mountroyalcem.com/index.php/en/our-services/genealogy-menu.html
PEATMAN, WILLIAM JOHN | Died: 1873
but I don't know who he was


Surname: PEATMAN
Given Name: John
Gender: M
Age: 22
Birth Year: 1859
Place of Birth: Quebec
Religion: Méthodiste
Nationality: Anglaise
Province: Quebec
District Name: Montreal (City)
District Number: 90
Sub-District Name: St. Mary's Ward
Sub-District Number: G
Division Number: 9
Family Number: 82
Page Number: 16
Microfilm: C-13219
Reference: RG31 - Statistics Canada
Item Number: 6178404
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/e/e327/e008161594.pdf


Surname: Butman
Given Name: John
Occupation: Cultiv
Gender: Male
Age: 42
Birth Date: 1858-07-20
Marital Status: Married
Place of Birth: Quebec
Religion: Adventist
Relationship: Chef
Ethnic Origin: Anglaise
Nationality: Canadian
Province: Quebec
District Name: Labelle
District Number: 160
Sub-District Name: Suffolk and Addington
Sub-District Number: Z
Division Number: 1
Family Number: 107
Page Number: 12 [LINE 24]
Microfilm: T-6526
Reference: RG31 - Statistics Canada
Item Number: 5602314
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1901/z/z003/pdf/z000144052.pdf
[Ancestry has the wife as Anney, which I think is correct]

Sched 2 http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/1901/z/z003/pdf/z000144037.pdf
[P 12 L 24 addy = Suffilk 33 A - looks like a lot #, so can't determine exactly where it is without a cadestral list]
[Occup = Cultiv - i.e. cultivateur = farmer]

Schedule 2 (the house schedule), if present, usually immediately preceeds Sched 1 (the main schedule, so subtract the page $ from the URL, e.g.,
.../pdf/z000144052.pdf less 12 = .../pdf/z000144040.pdf and enter the editted URL.
If Sched 2 is present, this should get you the last page of Sched 2s, so page back by editing URLs until you're there.

I thought it might be a village addy, but seeing as Labelle village is beyond Mt Tremblant & 150km NW of Montreal,it's really out in the bush.

1911 Census of Canada
Home / 1911 / Quebec / Labelle / 1 Addington and Suffolk Townships / page 10
[Enumeration district description: St. Emile de Suffolk Village and Namur Village]
20 84 Pretonan? John M Head M Jul 1861 50
21 84 Pretonan? Anné F Wife M Aug 1871 40
22 84 Pretonan? Charlé M Son S Apr 1892 19
23 84 Pretonan? Rachel F Daughter S Oct 1890 21
[correction exists, giving Anné as Anni]
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1911/pdf/e002058416.pdf

Saint-Émile-de-Suffolk is abt 165km by road from Montreal.
One can head NW past Sainte-Agathe-des-Monts - contimue and a couple of km past the Mont Tremblant turn, head SW on QC-323 towards Montobello.
After maybe 50km, you'll be at Saint-Émile-de-Suffolk Namur is a few km further on..


Name: Johan Brestman
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Married
Age: 61
Birth Year: abt 1860
Birth Place: Quebec
Relation to Head of House: Chef (Head)
Father Birth Place: England
Mother Birth Place: England
Racial or Tribal Origin: Francaise (French)
Province or Territory: Quebec
District: Labelle
District Number: 172
Sub-district: Suffolk and Addington (Township), St Émile de Suffolk, Vinoit, Namur (Village)
Sub-District Number: 15
City, Town or Village: Suffolk Canton
Street or Township: Suffolk Canton
Municipality: Suffolk Addington St Emile Suff
Occupation: Cultivateur
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Johan Brestman 61
Thomas Yeatman 32
Rachel Yeatman 30

Anyone can search 1921 and get images, transcriptions for free, but only via:
http://search.ancestry.ca/search/db.aspx?dbid=8991
[Don't let Ancestry bounce you to another of their sites]

Since it's hard to get back to an unbouncable state, I've pm'ed the 2 1921 images to Julia, just in case.

I am trying to locate John Peatman born 20 Jul 1858 in Montreal, Quebec on the 1891 Canadian census. I have found him on both the 1881 & 1901 census data, in both cases the Peatman name has been badly transcribed, but did come up as a possible match on a search. However, I draw a blank for 1891. This particular census is important as it is the only one taken during the period John was married to his first wife Sara Jane Anderson - they married in 1884 & she died in 1894. I have located various trade directory entries either side of 1891 indicating he was in Montreal, albeit he had moved from Dufresne to Iberville.

Whilst it could be a coincidence, John had a half-neice called Sarah Jane Anderson who was virtually the same age as him. I do not know if a marriage between them would have been legal in Canada at that time (perhaps someone can shed some light on this?). I have established that Sarah's father was William Anderson, census data shows him as being Irish. The 1891 census data for John & Sarah Jane would clearly help to clarfiy matters, but as I am unfamiliar with Canadian census searches I am struggling to know how to go about trying to find them when they don't appear through the standard search options.

Any help, suggestion would be appreciated.

Julie Johnson