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I understand that in those days there wasn't the 16 year age restriction on marriage - I have one girl married at 14 with a baby soon afterwaeds.

I can't say why the 14871 census seems wrong just a feeling - it seems out of character

I'm giving up on Francis and Ann for a bit - it might sort itself eventually or I'll do like everyone else and ignore the earlier marriage - though it goed against the grain!
Linda

Francis Brown
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 15 Oct 1795
Christening Place: HATHERN,LEICESTER,ENGLAND
Birth Date: Birthplace:
Death Date: Name Note:
Father's Name: John Brown
Father's Birthplace: Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Samuel
Mother's Birthplace: Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05934-1 System Origin: ODM
GS Film number: 590783 Reference ID:
Citing this Record:
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NPWY-8K3 : accessed 11 May 2016),
Francis Brown, 15 Oct 1795; citing HATHERN,LEICESTER,ENGLAND, reference ; FHL microfilm 590,783.

Francis Brown born Hathern Leics, 1795 to John Brown and ? Samuel?

Francis Brown born Shepshed Leics 1808 to James Brown and Ann Lakin Smith

Francis Brown wed Elizabeth Wallis of Hathern in 1822 (which Francis?)

Francis Brown (widower) m. Ann Bowkett in 1828 - Stepney Tower Hamlets

Francis Brown born Shepshed - living in Basford, Nottm with wife Ann CHIMNEY SWEEP
Ages recorded in Census 1841 30 1811
1851 41 1810
1861 50 1811
1871 63 1808
Age birth
Children born to Francis Brown in census 1841 Sarah 19 – 1822
William 13 1828/
Thomas 11 1830
Mary 8 1833 Basford
John 6 1835
Elizabeth 4 1837 Basford
Isaac 1 1840-1842 “

Inquest into 3 year old Isaac’s death held 15.7.1842 Shoulder of Mutton, Basford


Elizabeth Wallis born Hathern Leics.. 1794

Elizabeth Wallis buried Shepshed Leics 1826

Elizabeth Wallis born 21/6/1807 died 8/9/1807

I have collated the facts as I see them on the following sheet:#

Francis Brown
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 15 Oct 1795
Christening Place: HATHERN,LEICESTER,ENGLAND
Birth Date: Birthplace:
Death Date: Name Note:
Father's Name: John Brown
Father's Birthplace: Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Samuel
Mother's Birthplace: Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05934-1 System Origin: ODM
GS Film number: 590783 Reference ID:
Citing this Record:
"England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NPWY-8K3 : accessed 11 May 2016),
Francis Brown, 15 Oct 1795; citing HATHERN,LEICESTER,ENGLAND, reference ; FHL microfilm 590,783.

Francis Brown born Hathern Leics, 1795 to John Brown and ? Samuel?

Francis Brown born Shepshed Leics 1808 to James Brown and Ann Lakin Smith

Francis Brown wed Elizabeth Wallis of Hathern in 1822 (which Francis?)

Francis Brown (widower) m. Ann Bowkett in 1828 - Stepney Tower Hamlets

Francis Brown born Shepshed - living in Basford, Nottm with wife Ann CHIMNEY SWEEP
Ages recorded in Census 1841 30 1811
1851 41 1810
1861 50 1811
1871 63 1808
Age birth
Children born to Francis Brown in census 1841 Sarah 19 – 1822
William 13 1828/
Thomas 11 1830
Mary 8 1833 Basford
John 6 1835
Elizabeth 4 1837 Basford
Isaac 1 1840-1842 “

Inquest into 3 year old Isaac’s death held 15.7.1842 Shoulder of Mutton, Basford

Sarah could well have been the child of Elizabeth Wallis this being why her name is BROWN.. I think that something drove Francis to London - probably the death of first wife.
_____________________________________________________________

Elizabeth Wallis born Hathern Leics.. 1794

Elizabeth Wallis buried Shepshed Leics 1826

Elizabeth Wallis born 21/6/1807 died 8/9/1807

It seems to get more complicated that is why I have made this collation to try and get sense to it.

I am actually trackiing ancestry of Elizabeth Brown (1837-1908) my husbands great grandparents.
Linda :-0

To anyone interested, I contacted Hathern Parish re the deaths recorded for Elizabeth Wallis and I received the reply pasted below. I think it is quite helpful.


'Linda, not sure I can help you too much but here goes re. the confusion over Elizabeth Wallis.

I agree with you that the apparent deaths on same date 8 Sept 1807 is probably a mistake

(1) The first Elizabeth christened 1794 seemed to have married Francis Brown on July 15 1822 in Hathern, had 9 children and died Nov 1st 1872 (from Ancestry family tree).

(2) The second Elizabeth born 21 June 1807, did indeed die, it seems, on 8 Sep 1807.

Note, some cause for confusion is the number of Elizabeths with parents William and Elizabeth. I think most likely scenario is William Morris and Elizabeth Freeman married on 2 March 1786 and had children Sarah 1787, William 1789, Thomas 1791, Elizabeth 1794 as (1) above, and Mary 1795.

Then son William Morris (born as shown above in 1789) married Elizabeth Smith on 12 July 1803 and had children Ann 1805, Elizabeth 1807 as (2) above who died an infant, William 1810, and Elizabeth 1815 (maybe named after her late elder sister a practise I have come across before).

Hope this helps,

Regards, Anthony '



:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

I meant to say that the illegible '...' could be a father's surname used as a middle name and that looks like what it probably was :-)

there are lots of Flinders-s in Basford


unfortunately, Ann Clark born in London 1801 ... no scarcity of them and without a father's name at least, identifying her could be impossible


If Linda had just answered greyghost's very first question, posted 5 minutes after Linda posted her request ... 'your family' in 1851? ... we would at least have had some clue about the people Linda is actually researching ... and fairly easily concluded that the Elizabeth Wallis marriage was entirely unrelated

there is very little point in saying 'good try' when someone has found information that is unrelated, and pursued that line of research, when you had information all along Linda ... the 1851 census you referred to in your private message ... that was rather essential to the question

Elizabeth Wallis was a theory, and a rather outlandish one at that, not a fact about the Francis Brown with wife Ann in the 1851 census ... so researching her is a wild goose chase.

FreeReg Baptism entry on 03 May 2016
For information about this place follow the link to Basford
If you believe there to be an error in this transcription then please report it to our data manager.
Field Value
County Nottinghamshire
Place Basford
Church name St Leodegarius
Register type Unspecified
Baptism date 15 Sep 1822
Person forename Sarah Flinders
Person sex F
Person abode Basford
Father occupation Spinster
Mother forename Ann
Mother surname CLARKE

and here would be a baptism that would fit eldest child Sarah Brown in the 1841 household to a T

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JM8R-5J3

Name Sarah ... Clark
Gender Female
Christening Date 15 Sep 1822
Christening Place BASFORD,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
Mother's Name Ann Clark

(the '...' may have been something illegible, no image available there)

and the next child following the marriage as night follows day :-)

Name William Brown
Gender Male
Christening Date 19 Oct 1828
Christening Place BASFORD,NOTTINGHAM,ENGLAND
Father's Name Francis Brown
Mother's Name Ann


it would seem to me that both the Ann Bowkett marriage and the Elizabeth Wallis marriage are complete red herrings, and there are 3 different Francis Browns here altogether

A tree on Ancestry has this listed for the marriage (no source) of Ann and Francis

Marriage
6 May 1828 • St Leodegarius, Basford, Nottingham
Francis Brown
Ann Clark

this is the Francis + Ann household in 1841


Francis Brown 30
Ann Brown 40
Sarah Brown 19
William Brown 13
Thomas Brown 11
Mary Brown 8
John Brown 6
Elizabeth Brown 4
Isaac Brown 1
Jesse Dennis 14
Thomas Dennis 12


so pretty likely the eldest child is Ann's but not Francis's


However, I'm not sure how we are sure that the Francis + Ann couple in Basford is in fact the Brown + Bowkett couple who married in 1828


IF the family in Basford is your family, Isaac's birth certificate would state his mother's birth name

Births Sep 1839
Brown Isaac Basford 15 401

... unless you already have this or other evidence of who that couple was and your connection with them, and would you tell us if so?

maybe Ann could specify *which* Francis Brown family she is interested in?

the 1851 she refers to, with spouses aged 41 and 50, clearly is not the Francis Brown 1794 who married Elizabeth Wallis 1794 in 1822 ... for one thing that Elizabeth was living, with that Francis, in 1851

Ann are you tracing back from a child who was your ancestor, and can you tell us who that child is?

if you know for sure that the couple who married in 1828 and who are in Basford in 1851 are your ancestors then the Francis Brown + Elizabeth Wallis couple is a red herring, is it not?

because Francis could not have been in two households with two wives in 1871, just for example ... Elizabeth the 'first' wife not being deceased then

and that would have made the Francis Brown in the 1851 census in Basford very young to have been widowed and be marrying again in 1828, especially as greyghost says if his first marriage was 1822

Which 1871 census - there are 2 posted? And why not happy?

And re the 1851 Wood Street, Basford - you haven't said if that is correct

If so, then you haven't commented on Francis being unlikely to have married in 1822 as he would have been aged 14 at best with a 19 year old daughter in 1841.

Re your last post, do you mean Ann older by 10 years?

How have you got back to Francis/Ann/Elizabeth?

One consistency in the cenus's for 1/841-1861 is the 10 year age gap with Elizabeth being the elder by 10 years which is rare even in the Cheetham Ancestry where the wives are mostly older but only by four years at most.

I'm not very happy about the 1871 cxensus but as yet have found no other.

It is certainly odd about the burials of Elizabeth Wallis on the same day but their burials need not have been in parish records.

Francis Brown remains in Wood Street between 1851 - 1871 at least.
1841 he is at Brigg Hill Lane, Basford b Notts

In 1871 he is a couple of years older than before but is consistently a Sweep and
b Sheepshead/Shepshed

It still doesn't make this Francis Brown old enough to have married in 1822

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Wood Street, Basford, Nottinghamshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Francis Brown Head - Male 63 1808 - Leicestershire, England
Athelinda Clarke Housekeeper - Female 41 1830 - Nottinghamshire, England
Samuel Sellars Servant - Male 12 1859 - Nottinghamshire, England

Marriage Banns for a Francis Brown Widower and Ann Bowkett Spinster both of this parish called 7th/14th/21st September

and the marriage you refer to

Francis Brown
in the London, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Francis Brown
Spouse: Ann Bowkett
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 29 Sep 1828
Parish: Christ Church with St Mary and St Stephen, Spitalfields
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Register Type: Parish Register

PM from Linda -

In 1851 Francis Brown and 2nd wife Ann nee Bowkett lived in Basford Nottinghams. Good try though.
What I am trying to do is sort out Francis's 1st wife - he is from Sheepshed 2miles from Hathern . Something must have sent Francis away from Shepshed between 1822 and 1828 when he married Ann in London - Ann was from London. I imagine something like deaths of wife and/or children. he was widower when he married Ann.

Please keep your answers to the thread Linda

So do you mean this family -

1851 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Wood Street, Basford, Nottinghamshire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Francis Brown Head Married Male 41 1810 Chimney Sweeper Sheepshed, Leicestershire, England
Ann Brown Wife Married Female 50 1801 Seamstress Of Gloves London, Middlesex, England
Mary Brown Daughter Unmarried Female 18 1833 Seamstress Of Gloves Basford, Nottinghamshire,
Ellen Brown Daughter Unmarried Female 15 1836 Seamstress Of Gloves Basford, Nottinghamshire,
Eliza Brown Daughter - Female 10 1841 - Basford, Nottinghamshire, England
John Jebson Servant - Male 9 1842 Chimney Sweepers (App) Arnold, Nottinghamshire,
John Bostock Servant - Male 10 1841 Chimney Sweepers (App) Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
Moses Bostock Servant - Male 9 1842 Chimney Sweepers (App) Ilkeston, Derbyshire, England
Seth Richardson Lodger Unmarried Male 22 1829 Besom Maker Arnold, Nottinghamshire, England

Because if so I see the problem of Francis only being 12 when he married in 1822 !!

Can't really help you but I have been there for Sunday lunch in the past !!

It's still there, though not quite so popular!!

Dea x

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
Anchor Inn, Hathern, Loughborough, Leicestershire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Francis Brown Head - Male 77 1794 - Leicestershire, England
Transcription
Elizabeth Brown Wife - Female 77 1794 - Leicestershire, England
Transcription
Hannah Brown Daughter - Female 36 1835 - Leicestershire, England
Transcription
William Brown Son - Male 31 1840 - Leicestershire, England
Transcription
Nahum Brown Grandson - Male 7 1864 - Leicestershire, England

England & Wales deaths 1837-2007 Transcription
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First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name BROWN
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1794
Age 78
Death quarter 4
Death year 1872
District LOUGHBOROUGH
County Leicestershire
Volume 7A
Page 72
Country England
Record set England & Wales deaths 1837-2007
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Deaths & burials
Collections from Great Britain

(c) brightsolid online publishing ltd

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well the absence of a burial record would seem to settle it

but yes greyghost I was agreeing for sure (I'd seen your edit there): even if there were a burial record, it's not likely two Elizabeth Wallis-s were buried on the same date in the same place. :-)

I wonder how many other people are mistakenly recorded as buried on that date in 1807 when they weren't??

theres no elizabeth wallis death in 1807 hathern parish records deaths