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Catherine....my gran is certain of his name Izak but we wonder if he had other names or spelling - she never knew him as he left the family when she was a baby...so will have to wait to find that one out but the PJC is the key to what we need

Sorry we have a massive time difference due to Aus

My gran had a brother as stated, he passed away though a long time ago

thanks so much guys I appreciate the help and insights...

Catherine unfortunately my gran being 80, moved a lot and also had a few robberies clearing her out she doesn't have such paperwork...I am applying this week for it - I am in Australia so will do here so I have the info on me...I am hoping to get her mothers (Annie Catherine)...

Yep almost infuriating that still struggling to find a death certificate for Patrick....we know he died before Thomas or Petrus did....so it has to be recorded somewhere surely grrrrr...

Eringobragh not sure if the last post is the same one that would be a complete new set of info....

ok we know he was born in Ireland 1878-1879....I guess the thing is about when he landed in RSA - likely DUrban port considering most events took place in Durban and Thaba Nchu until Annie moved to Bloemfontein where my gran was born....

Did you see my post on the first page from yesterday around one PJC I found in Ireland with parents Thomas and Annie....I guess its just a guess but thought names were interesting as he gave it to two of his children...

Sorry guys re confusion...yes my grandmothers current surname (Strydom) is her married name she married a Johannes Jacobus Strydom...she was born a Van Loggerenberg but hope to get more from the certificates when I get it

Come on Death Certificate....or event recording....must be somewhere?!

I wonder if this may be another Marriage....Although childrens Baptism dates overlap....

PJC was an overseer and family were living 16 Lennox St.Kimberley


Patrick Joseph Carroll

mentioned in the record of Joseph Carroll

Name Patrick Joseph Carroll

Child Joseph Carroll

Other information in the record of Joseph Carroll

from South Africa, Church of the Province of South Africa, Parish Registers

Name Joseph Carroll
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 08 Dec 1906
Event Place Cape of Good Hope, South Africa
Parent Name Patrick Joseph Carroll
Parent 2 Name Harriet Ellen Carroll
Page 171
Entry Number 679

Cannot follow it through on either Joseph or Harriet Ellen..

There is also another childs Baptism for the couple Kathleen Grace in 1911 but they were in the Transvaal by then.

As Eringobragh posted earlier, Patrick married Nellie Brierey in 1927

Nom Patrick Joseph Carroll
Type d'événement Marriage
Date de l'événement 09 Dec 1927
Lieu de l'événement Durban, Natal, South Africa
Sexe Male
Âge 48
Année de naissance (estimée) 1879
Nom du conjoint Nellie Brierley
Sexe du Conjoint Female
Conjoint Age 29
Année de naissance du conjoint (estimée) 1898


She went on to marry again in 1945

Nellie Brierley Carroll
mentionné dans le document concernant Valentine Albert Aubery et Nellie Brierley Carroll
Nom Valentine Albert Aubery
Type d'événement Marriage
Date de l'événement 15 May 1945
Lieu de l'événement Durban, Natal, South Africa
Sexe Male
Âge 53
Année de naissance (estimée) 1892
Nom du conjoint Nellie Brierley Carroll
Sexe du Conjoint Female
Conjoint Age 44
Année de naissance du conjoint (estimée) 1901
Both noted as Europeen

She is a shop assistant and married by special licence.
She is noted as Divorcee

(I don't know, just another one of those smooth talking Irish men I suppose)

Was hoping she was widow which would have narrowed down a death for Patrick, but hey ho!!

On the will of Petrus he left all he had to his daughter Melané.
This is why:-

Lynette Constance Carroll
South Africa, Orange Free State, Estate Files
Nom Lynette Constance Carroll
Type d'événement Death
Date de l'événement 14 Dec 1968
Lieu de l'événement Bloemfontein
Date de naissance 16 Sep 1946
Nom du père Petrus Jurie Carroll
Nom de la mère Constance Edmundia Carroll

Just wish I could find Patrick Joseph's Death...!!

I think that Strydom must be her married name as the will states that Michael James Van Loggerenberg is the son, and Carol Molly Van Loggerenberg is the daughter, of his sister.

As a matter of interest it also gives the names of Lynette Constance Carroll and Melane Carroll who are the girls of his brother.

So all the children mentioned would be the nieces and nephews of Thomas Miles.

EDIT:- just to show that Lynette Constance and Melanie were indeed the daugthers of Petrus

Petrus Jurie Carroll
South Africa, Orange Free State, Estate Files
Nom Petrus Jurie Carroll
Type d'événement Death
Date de l'événement 12 Jul 1969
Lieu de l'événement Bloemfontein
Date de naissance 11 Dec 1912
Nom du conjoint Constance Edmundia Carroll
Autre nom (s) CHILD:Melané Carroll; CHILD:Lynette Carroll

Catherine ..I must admit I am a bit lost ..

Chandi mentions.....(Original Post)


"My grandmother is Carrol Molly Strydom born 29 Jan 1935 in Johannesburg, still living."

So am I a bit mixed up

Mine too.

Out of curiosity I took a look at Thomas Miles Carroll's will and Carol Molly Van Loggerenberg is mentioned along with her brother Michael James Van Loggerenberg, so she wasn't an only child. That's a new bit of information that wasn't mentioned before.

EDIT:- from a web site I found it states that 'a' Michael James Van Loggerenberg was born on 03/06/1936 and married a Elizabeth Wilhelminia Cornelia Meintjies, but can't get any more info as it's a paid site for members only so could be a different one.

Catherine.. You have a point there.....It never occurred to me to ask...Doh !!
SA is way out of my comfort zone.

I just thought that, as most people have a copy of their own birth certificate and as her Grandmother is still alive, she would probably have a copy hidden away somewhere.
I've helped others who were asking for info and who turned out to have documents that were important to the research, so thought it worth asking.

Catherine .From what I have found out SA is one of the most difficult places to obtain BMD..so I guess that's why Chandi is having the problem she is.

The Death Record appears to be the most informative ..Thomas' Carrolls was a mine of info.as all his documents were attached to it .



"How do I get a birth certificate?

With great difficulty. First, to apply for one, you need to know the information you probably want to get from the certificate. That's Catch 22. Catches 1-21 are almost as bad. Birth certificates are expensive. They take a long time to get. The indexes are not open to the public so you can't ask someone else to look them up."

How do I get a marriage certificate?

Marriage certificates are of little use to genealogists in South Africa. They do not give the names and occupations of parents. They are as difficult to get as birth certificates. Your best chance of seeing one is if the couple got divorced, and you find a copy in the divorce records. SOME divorce records are in the archives, and you can find them here: http://www.national.archives.gov.za/naairs_content.htm

The archival references to divorces will sometimes speak of "illiquid cases" or "opposed applications", and sometimes there will be both. They can be quite useful. Sometimes you can really get the dirt on your ancestors from these things - private detectives' reports on how many times they committed adultery, where and with whom, for example. Also, names and ages of minor children and who got the custody.

Chandi, does your Grandmother not have her birth certificate?

You say you 'think' his name is Izak Van Loggerenberg, but to find out more info on him, you really do need his correct name so, if you don't have it, then I think you should start, by getting a copy of the birth certificate.

Chandi
On the familysearch.org " Search" page I just put in minimum details eg.Patrick Carroll South Africa....

I did not put "Joseph" age etc...the results brought up what is already posted above other than the actual Birth/Baptism dates of the children that was from another site...
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/south-africa-orange-free-state/2012-02/1329241057


When you see Patricks marriage to Nellie Brierley click on that and you will get the details.

To the right of that page you will see a box " view original image" click on that and the image gives details of his place of Birth age marital status address etc.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCY-J7R

thanks so much for your help and info..starting to feel dumb as using family search and still struggling to pull anything regarding Patrick Joseph Carroll.....

if Annie got divorced there should be a record somewhere of the marriage/divorce?

ok what I found what do u think? I think this may be the right one due to parent names considering his childrens names appear to take after them? how does one really get more info and dig in or where else can I get info? tried


Name:
Patrick Joseph Carroll

Gender:
Male



can I ask though what should I do differently to get the result you have posted previously where you saw his marriages etc?
Birth Date:
24 Jan 1878

Birth Place:
Dublin, Ireland

Father's name:
Thomas Carroll

Mother's name:
Annie Swift Carroll

FHL Film Number:
255998

Baptisms solemized in the Wesleayan-Methodist Chapel, Thaba Nchu and elsewhere in the District of Bloemfontein.

Entry 69
Child's Name: Annie Catherine
Surname: CAROL
Parents: Patrick Joseph and Letta Maria Elizabeth
Born; 3 June 1907
Baptised; 8 July 1907 at the parents house
Abode; Thaba Nchu
Minister; J.K. DERRY






Entry 145
Child's Name: Thomas Miles
Surname: CARROLL
Parents: Patrick Joseph and Luitha Maria Elizabeth
Born; 17 Oct 1909****
Baptised; 13 June 1911****
Abode; Thaba Nchu
Minister: J.W. HOUSEHAM


Entry 186
Child's Name: Petrus Jurie
Surname: CARROLL
Parents: Patrick Joseph and Lenitha Maria Elizabeth
Born: 11 December 1912
Baptised: 24 April 1913
Abode: Thaba Nchu
Minister: J.W. HOUSEHAM

Patrick and Nellie married in Durban North District and he gives his place of birth as Ireland abt. 1879 age at marriage 48yrs
Nellie is only 28 and b.England...

Re Thomas Miles Carrolls Death....If you go into link on family search you can see the original image and much much more if you just keep clicking (left top corner of image) ..his will and testament plus his goods and chattels....some 60 pages ..
The same applies to Peter Carroll except you also have his Pre-Nuptial marriage contract to Constance..in Afrikaan and English just click on image as with Thomas'



Patrick Joseph Carroll

mentioned in the record of Thomas Miles Carroll

Name Patrick Joseph Carroll
Gender Male
Wife Luita Maria Elizabeth Stroebel
Child Thomas Miles Carroll

Other information in the record of Thomas Miles Carroll

from South Africa, Orange Free State, Estate Files

Name Thomas Miles Carroll
Event Type Death
Event Date 19 Jan 1960
Event Place Bloemfontein
Age 50
Birth Year (Estimated) 1910
Birthplace Thaba Nchu
Father's Name Patrick Joseph Carroll
Mother's Name Luita Maria Elizabeth Stroebel
Other Name(s) CHILD_1:Petrus Jurie Carroll; CHILD_2:Annie Catherine Van Loggerenberg Carroll

Chandi...He also was divorced from Nellie Brierley..She remarried in May 1945 in Durban to a Valentine Aurbrey.

I would hazard a guess Patrick was b Ireland...