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HI all

Any guidance would be great...we trying to get more info regarding my grandmothers ancestors...specifically her father and her grandparents. What I have:

My grandmother is Carrol Molly Strydom born 29 Jan 1935 in Johannesburg, still living.

Her mother is Annie Catherine Van Loggerenberg (nee Carroll) born 3 June 1907 Thaba Nchu I think and her husband left when my gran was a baby and she is [pretty confused about any of his info....she thinks his name was Izak Van Loggerenberg.

From what I further found and unsure of is Annie's father is Thomas Miles Carroll born 1910 died about 19 Jan 1960 in Thaba Nchu?. And his father from what I see is Patrick Joseph Carroll with an estimated BD of 1879. ANnie's mother is listed as Luitha Maria Elizabeth Stroebel no other info.

And someone by the name of Constance Edmundia Carroll is showing...

any help would be great I have been searching high and low and pretty stuck...

I am guessing to get my grandmother's dad's info as he left young would be to get my grans unabridged birth certificate? unless a marriage thing can be found which I haven't as yet.

Many thanks

Hi Chandi, welcome to the community boards.

Could you just clarify the dates - you say "Annie Catherine Van Loggerenberg (nee Carroll) born 3 June 1907" but then "Annie's father is Thomas Miles Carroll born 1910" so the years don't quite fit.

Just for info, Thomas Miles Carroll's death:

https://goo.gl/gRUSNv

Does that not read as though Annie was his sister?

sorry bad typo and my own scribbles....

so Patrick and Luitha are the parents

Thank you Marie :) sorry again for my mix up which I didn't even pick up

The death of Petrus Jurie Carroll:

https://goo.gl/OFsXY5

I'm afraid I can't do the translation, but it appears that Patrick Joseph Carroll and Luitha Maria Elizabeth Stroebel had 3 children: Petrus Jurie, Annie Catherine and Thomas Miles.

Constance Edmundia was the wife of Petrus Jurie Carroll.

Thank you it confirms my scribbles and what I have been finding and trying to confirm

No need for translation :)

But this is where I get the roadblock of getting any more info on Patrick Joseph Carroll and Luitha Maria Elizabeth Stroebel...

IS there also a placre I can find out who Annie had married and divorced (i.e. my granmothers father?) :-D

I'm no expert on South African research, the few time I've had to look up information I've used FamilySearch, EGGSA, National Archives South Africa.

The latter is showing this 1923 case:

DEPOT VAB
SOURCE HG
TYPE LEER
VOLUME_NO 4/2/1/1/274
SYSTEM 01
REFERENCE 691/1923
PART 1
DESCRIPTION CIVIL RECORDS. TRIALS AND APPLICATIONS. LUITA MARIA CARROLL, BORN STROEBEL VERSUS PATRICK JOSEPH CARROLL.
STARTING 19230000
ENDING 19230000

Family search has details of Patrick Joseph...you can also view his 2nd marriage to Nellie Brierley 1927...
The following is Peter Carrolls Death..His wife was Constance.


Name Patrick Joseph Carroll
Gender Male
Wife Luitha Maria Elizabeth Carroll
Child Petrus Jurie Carroll

Other information in the record of Petrus Jurie Carroll

from South Africa, Orange Free State, Estate Files

Name Petrus Jurie Carroll
Event Type Death
Event Date 12 Jul 1969
Event Place Tempe
Age 56
Birth Year (Estimated) 1913
Father's Name Patrick Joseph Carroll
Mother's Name Luitha Maria Elizabeth Carroll
Spouse's Name Constance Edmundia Carroll
Other Name(s) CHILD:Melané Carroll

thank you...

I will look again as I couldn't find much on Patrick such as birth date and place..yes did find the second marriage though so I'm glad I had right one...

hmm maybe the civil record is a divorce?!

we have a reason to believe they may be of irish/uk decent...and wondering if its Patrick who immigrated

I am finding other nationalities easoer...south African seems way harder to find info

Chandi...He also was divorced from Nellie Brierley..She remarried in May 1945 in Durban to a Valentine Aurbrey.

I would hazard a guess Patrick was b Ireland...

Re Thomas Miles Carrolls Death....If you go into link on family search you can see the original image and much much more if you just keep clicking (left top corner of image) ..his will and testament plus his goods and chattels....some 60 pages ..
The same applies to Peter Carroll except you also have his Pre-Nuptial marriage contract to Constance..in Afrikaan and English just click on image as with Thomas'



Patrick Joseph Carroll

mentioned in the record of Thomas Miles Carroll

Name Patrick Joseph Carroll
Gender Male
Wife Luita Maria Elizabeth Stroebel
Child Thomas Miles Carroll

Other information in the record of Thomas Miles Carroll

from South Africa, Orange Free State, Estate Files

Name Thomas Miles Carroll
Event Type Death
Event Date 19 Jan 1960
Event Place Bloemfontein
Age 50
Birth Year (Estimated) 1910
Birthplace Thaba Nchu
Father's Name Patrick Joseph Carroll
Mother's Name Luita Maria Elizabeth Stroebel
Other Name(s) CHILD_1:Petrus Jurie Carroll; CHILD_2:Annie Catherine Van Loggerenberg Carroll

Patrick and Nellie married in Durban North District and he gives his place of birth as Ireland abt. 1879 age at marriage 48yrs
Nellie is only 28 and b.England...

Baptisms solemized in the Wesleayan-Methodist Chapel, Thaba Nchu and elsewhere in the District of Bloemfontein.

Entry 69
Child's Name: Annie Catherine
Surname: CAROL
Parents: Patrick Joseph and Letta Maria Elizabeth
Born; 3 June 1907
Baptised; 8 July 1907 at the parents house
Abode; Thaba Nchu
Minister; J.K. DERRY






Entry 145
Child's Name: Thomas Miles
Surname: CARROLL
Parents: Patrick Joseph and Luitha Maria Elizabeth
Born; 17 Oct 1909****
Baptised; 13 June 1911****
Abode; Thaba Nchu
Minister: J.W. HOUSEHAM


Entry 186
Child's Name: Petrus Jurie
Surname: CARROLL
Parents: Patrick Joseph and Lenitha Maria Elizabeth
Born: 11 December 1912
Baptised: 24 April 1913
Abode: Thaba Nchu
Minister: J.W. HOUSEHAM

thanks so much for your help and info..starting to feel dumb as using family search and still struggling to pull anything regarding Patrick Joseph Carroll.....

if Annie got divorced there should be a record somewhere of the marriage/divorce?

ok what I found what do u think? I think this may be the right one due to parent names considering his childrens names appear to take after them? how does one really get more info and dig in or where else can I get info? tried


Name:
Patrick Joseph Carroll

Gender:
Male



can I ask though what should I do differently to get the result you have posted previously where you saw his marriages etc?
Birth Date:
24 Jan 1878

Birth Place:
Dublin, Ireland

Father's name:
Thomas Carroll

Mother's name:
Annie Swift Carroll

FHL Film Number:
255998

Chandi
On the familysearch.org " Search" page I just put in minimum details eg.Patrick Carroll South Africa....

I did not put "Joseph" age etc...the results brought up what is already posted above other than the actual Birth/Baptism dates of the children that was from another site...
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/south-africa-orange-free-state/2012-02/1329241057


When you see Patricks marriage to Nellie Brierley click on that and you will get the details.

To the right of that page you will see a box " view original image" click on that and the image gives details of his place of Birth age marital status address etc.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KDCY-J7R

Chandi, does your Grandmother not have her birth certificate?

You say you 'think' his name is Izak Van Loggerenberg, but to find out more info on him, you really do need his correct name so, if you don't have it, then I think you should start, by getting a copy of the birth certificate.

Catherine .From what I have found out SA is one of the most difficult places to obtain BMD..so I guess that's why Chandi is having the problem she is.

The Death Record appears to be the most informative ..Thomas' Carrolls was a mine of info.as all his documents were attached to it .



"How do I get a birth certificate?

With great difficulty. First, to apply for one, you need to know the information you probably want to get from the certificate. That's Catch 22. Catches 1-21 are almost as bad. Birth certificates are expensive. They take a long time to get. The indexes are not open to the public so you can't ask someone else to look them up."

How do I get a marriage certificate?

Marriage certificates are of little use to genealogists in South Africa. They do not give the names and occupations of parents. They are as difficult to get as birth certificates. Your best chance of seeing one is if the couple got divorced, and you find a copy in the divorce records. SOME divorce records are in the archives, and you can find them here: http://www.national.archives.gov.za/naairs_content.htm

The archival references to divorces will sometimes speak of "illiquid cases" or "opposed applications", and sometimes there will be both. They can be quite useful. Sometimes you can really get the dirt on your ancestors from these things - private detectives' reports on how many times they committed adultery, where and with whom, for example. Also, names and ages of minor children and who got the custody.

I just thought that, as most people have a copy of their own birth certificate and as her Grandmother is still alive, she would probably have a copy hidden away somewhere.
I've helped others who were asking for info and who turned out to have documents that were important to the research, so thought it worth asking.

Catherine.. You have a point there.....It never occurred to me to ask...Doh !!
SA is way out of my comfort zone.