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Yes I was just looking at the flower sellers and hawkers there Joonie,
as I've found it 1911 England, so no one needs to search. No connections there in 1911.

36 Forster Road, Croydon, Surrey, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
James Baker Head - Male Navy 52 1859 Devon Stonehouse Transcription
Jane Baker Wife - Female - 49 1862 Hants Transcription
Alfred Baker - - Male Van Boy 19 1892 Kent Folkestone

it does suit the nature of Forster Rd in 1911 Rose - hawkers and flower sellers, and Ellen herself in the earlier news report described as a hawker


the ancestry link I put in before (I've fixed it, I don't know what happened but I'd put an unrelated link) has someone saying

http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1721&p=localities.britisles.england.sry.general

'I know there was a wilford road in croydon surrey because i lived in the next road to it wich was forster road. wilford road got badly bombed in the war and forster road was hit also . so badly in fact that thay had to be pulled down the names of the roads are still there but the is a small park were thay were. i'm sorry john to correct you but you see i'm 67 and i was born down forster road . and it was called affectionatly banghole. there was an alley that ran between wilford and foster road's and the men use to gambel down the alley. us kids had to stand at each end of the alley and let the gamberlers know when the police were coming. some times they would leave some money on the ground and us kids would pick it up and go and buy some sweets.'

so since that was in 2003, 60 years before was during the war

it seems to have had a colourful reputation for some time

perhaps not Roma though, Frank didn't likely marry into a family known to his parents

his mother was Irish and his father had an Irish mother

his mother was poor and very disadvantaged in any case I would think

the report of her being abandoned with her baby does suggest that Frank was her only child, at least to that point

I notice that Frank Vary married a Lee, which is a Romany name, did come across an old thread on here which gives an address as being in Forster Road Croydon, for ref

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1332704

I wonder if this might account for the various locations and possibly why they can't be found in 1911?

edit " Also Wilford Road and Forster Roads are no longer in existance, they started to pull them down just before the 1939 war"

could this be the marriage of that Samuel Vary and Ellen ................ after the 1881 Census ;-)

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Samuel Vary
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Age: 23
Spouse: Ellen Butler
Spouse Age: 22
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 12 Aug 1882
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Lambeth
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: William Vary
Spouse Father: Stephen Butler
Register Type: Parish Register

from image:-

Samuel
Occupation:- Corn Porter
Address:- 18 Princes Square <<<<< for both of them
Father occupation:- Gas Fitter

Ellen
no occupation shown
Father:- Bricklayer

Witnesses:- John Munday and Catherine Bay



1881 Census

Samuel occupation:- Potato Porter

Address:- 47 Red Cross Street, Southwark (a tenement with many residents)

the Ellen Vary who died in 1907 was 44 years old

I suspect the Ellen who died in 1907 was this one in 1881

Name: Ellen Vary
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1861
Relationship to Head: Wife
Spouse: Samuel Vary aged 20
Gender: Female
Where born: London E C, London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Southwark St Saviour

they may have overstated their ages there ... I can't find them in later censuses

but in 1911 Samuel was widowed

Name: Samuel Vary
Age in 1911: 53
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Civil Parish: Islington
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street address: 37 Albert St, Islington, London N
Marital Status: Widowed


there just were not that many Ellen Varys around for the death in 1907 to have been anyone but the one married to Samuel

Alan I'm wondering whether you have the right Ellen Vary death

and whether you might want to consider the possibilities malyon and I raised (1901 census as prisoner), and the other possibilities I raised (1911 census, 1929 death) and especially the material offered by AustinQ, which would fit very well with Frank's birth and with the other possibilities suggested.

if that was the story of your Frank's mother, it would be no surprise if he was told she had died ... but his military papers suggest he knew she was living at the time he enrolled


The Ellen Vary arrested in 1923 in West Croydon at the age of 54, as posted by AustinQ, must be Frank's mother -- note the address given,

>>> Foster Rd, West Croydon, as in his military papers

and that must be the Ellen whose death I posted:

Deaths Mar 1929
Vary Ellen 58 St.Albans 3a 1523


I really think you have the wrong person / death.


We know you are looking for news of Frank between birth and military service, and the only thing likely to help is finding him in the 1911 census, and to do that we have to sort out what happened to his mother and father, to rule out his being with them

(and of course I do understand it is rather pointless to post the things you know that are of no particular help to us with this, like his marriage and death, except that knowing where he was might offer clues as well)

Surrey Mirror 10 August 1923

DRUNK AND DISORDERLY

ELLEN VARY (54) Foster Road, West Croydon, was charged with being drunk and disorderly in Station Road, Redhill, on Wednesday afternoon.....Case was dismissed
---------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps also related??

Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette 30 October 1902

BATH POLICE

A NUISANCE
Ellen Vary was charged with wandering abroad and begging in Bond Street on the 25th and also using obscene language in George Street on the same date....The Prisoner who appeared with a baby in her arms said she had been deserted by her husband and had to shift for herself. She was almost out of her mind with worry having the baby to look after......
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gloucester Citizen 19 December 1902

Swindon- Petty Sessions:

Ellen Vary, a Hawker, was charged with being drunk and disorderly at Purton and also with causing cruelty to her child, a baby of nine months. The woman was carrying the child about her when intoxicated, and exposing it to a pouring rain...
-------------------------------------------------------------

no need to apologise Alan :-) I should apologise for being such a grouch :-D

Joonie, We were always told that Frank's mother died when he was very young, l have a copy of a death certificate for a Ellen Vary (we believe to be the correct Ellen Vary) who died in Holborn Infirmary on the 7th December 1907, from Pulmonary tuberculosis Syncope. I am trying to find out what happened to Frank after her death. You are correct, on Frank's birth certificate his name was spelt Very this was corrected on the 12th September 1945 by declarations made by Joe Vary and Nell Daly.
Sorry Ann I'm new to this.

Sorry it has taken me so long to reply but been have problems with my computer. (and still am).
Thank you all very much for your reply's / information. it will take me some time to go through it all. I know a lot of the information received, like his Marriage in 1929 to Annie E Lee, and his Death in 1979, what l'm really looking for is, if anyone can tell me what happened to him between his birth in 1902, and him joining The Royal Dublin Fusiliers transferring to Queens Royal Regiment. I know he was boxing for the Royal Dublin Fusiliers in 1921 - 1925 in India. (I have newspaper cuttings of his fights).
Once again thanks for all your help.

thanks for your message Alan - but you must respond on here for all to see please

AnnC ............

sometimes people are accessing from a computer in the local library, or they work shifts, or they've had a medical emergency either for themselves or other family members.

There's all kinds of reasons.

I've given it a try too!

why on earth do people ask for help and then disappear :-S

I hope Alan sees your message / returns Ann, we could certainly use some input apart from the sketchy info in the first post!



Aha yes Chris, in fact one person talking about it here mistypes it 'Foster' :-)

EDIT I somehow managed to put a completely unrelated link here, this is the one I intended

http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1721&p=localities.britisles.england.sry.general

Google maps finds it but because of people's refusal to put numbers on their houses I haven't figured out the house (or is google blocking them out?!) - the street starts here and I think the numbers run up from there, and even numbers are on the right ... I did manage to spot nos. 51 and then 55 on a large white double and 67 in big numbers a few doors south:

http://tinyurl.com/ofnxtge

quite a nice neighbourhood today :-)

but less so in earlier days I think ... in 1911 one occupant of #43 was a hawker and another a flower seller ... and a labourer and a dealer ... that one was multi-family

going back through the census images from there - and yes half of them say 'Foster' ... 36 was occupied by a hawker (3 people in one room), a railway navvy (3 people in one room), and a husband and wife jobbing gardener and hawker (that family was 6 people in two rooms).

poster has yet to open my mnessage

http://www.londontown.com/LondonStreets/forster_road_b4c.html/

(pehaps was above)

Chris :)

well, that's interesting .........

maybe you are right ............ he didn't know whether his mother was alive or dead.

definitely says Foster Rd on the image

there was no Foster Rd in Croydon in 1911 and there isn't one now ...

well that might throw a wrench into my works Sylvia

however I do know of someone who enrolled for WWII who had been placed in an institution as a child ... and gave a name and address for his mother ... who was actually deceased! so one never knows ...

I had been bundling this last effort up when you posted, edited to add this ^^^ reply so as not to go leapfrogging


edit 14 Nov - ignore the info below about Annie Florence Vary
London baptisms at Ancestry shows her as daughter of Thomas's brother Robert

(no baptisms of children of Thomas Vary)


possibly interesting in 1911

Name: Anne Vary
Age in 1911: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1894
Relation to Head: Niece
Gender: Female
Birth Place: London, United Kingdom
Civil Parish: Kensington
County/Island: London
Street address: 60 St Anns Road, Notting Hill W
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: IRONER
Registration district: Kensington
Mary Bloomfield 36 - sister of wife of Robert G Vary, Thomas's brother
Anne Vary 17


Births Sep 1894
Vary Annie Florence Kensington 1a 121

brother Robert had a younger child (see 1911) with Florence middle name so it would be unusual for that Annie to be his child

Births Dec 1906
Vary Catherine Florence Kensington 1a 86

the 1894 Annie was with the Bloomfield grandmother and aunt in 1901

Mary Bloomfield 62
Mary Bloomfield 24
Annie Vary 6
Edward Griffiths 31

the only connection with the Bloomfield name is Robert's wife and there is no apparent reason why that one child would have been reared by someone other than Robert and his wife ... could she possibly have been a child of Thomas taken in by his brother Robert's in-laws?


I am wandering afield here :-) just looking for any clues to Frank/Patrick in the 1911 census since we don't seem to know whether Ellen had other children

Mary Catherine born 1899 is Catherine M in 1911, daughter of Samuel ...

the 1896 Ellen Mary seems to belong to Thomas's brother John, in Nottinghamshire in 1911