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(just see you mgnv, lol, now looked at Jane 1891 FMP, Lancs. (Clayton) age, looks like 39, lots of 'lines' on image!)
(and that Wolsencroft? (Jas. and Margaret) plus family underneath, saw that name here posted earlier, somewhere!, if they relate)
1891 (Find My Past)
Jas Wolstencroft Head Married Male 40 1851 Hatter Gorton, Lancashire, England
Margaret Wolstencroft Wife Married Female 38 1853 - Crewe, Cheshire, England
Chris :)
ArgyllGran Report 21 Oct 2015 12:12
This looks like the same family in 1871, but mangled by the enumerator.
The Boyds and Worsencrofts are two different households at different addresses, next door to each other, but the enumerator has listed the Boyds as children of the Worsencrofts.
William's a smith foreman.
All the Boyds are unmarried - but as the enumerator's made such a mess of the rest of the record, who knows if that's correct!
William Boyd
in the 1871 England Census
Name: William Boyd
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation: Son
Father's name: George Worsencroft
Mother's name: Martha Worsencroft
Gender: Male
Where born: Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish: Gorton
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
Town: Gorton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 42
Household schedule number: 4
Piece: 3982
Folio: 4
Page Number: 1
Household Members:
Name Age
George Worsencroft 30
Martha Worsencroft 28
Frank Worsencroft 3 Months
S M H Boyd 23
William Boyd 20 - smith foreman
Jane Boyd 17 - born Liverpool
Martha Boyd 14 - Liverpool
Margaret E Boyd 9 - Manchester
Horatius Nelson Boyd 6 - Gorton
Emmeline Boyd 4 - Gorton
Thomas Henry Boyd 3 - Gorton
Thomas Edge Boyd 3 - Gorton
edits (as already said, just get below, lol)
Births Mar 1876 (>99%)
-------------------------------------------------------------
BOYD Margaret Elizabeth Chorlton 8c 762
(and that Death you mentioned in opening post)
Burial
County Lancashire
Place Ardwick
Church name Cemetery
Register type
Register entry number 38670
Burial date 26 Aug 1873
Person age 6m
Burial person forename Jane Elizabeth
Burial person surname BOYD
Burial person abode Gorton Brook
http://www.freereg.org.uk/
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1873
BOYD Jane Elizabeth Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/index.php
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CH - thanks for the 1891 check
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1788853
A search there gets
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FM1Y-BN5
It says "No image available" but that's not really accurate - it would be accurate to say "No link to image available".
So if I go back to the search page, and "Browse through 248,202 images" down the following path:
England, Lancashire, Ches...rish Registers, 1603-1910 > Lancashire > Gorton, St James > Baptisms, 1873-1892 > Image 456 of 457
I get to the image
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-159376-899339-0?cc=1788853&wc=M6FC-R29:143838901,152962501,145003701
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Like Maryb, I got to wondering if I'd gotten the right Jane
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1882
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BOYD William BRIERLEY Jane Bradford, Christ Church Archives+, Manchester Central Library 33/3/177
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2331-K7Z
with link to image at:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2331-K7Z
Name William Boyd
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 02 Jul 1882
Event Place Christ Church, Bradford, Lancashire, England
Gender Male
Age 30
Marital Status Widowed ******************
Birth Year (Estimated) 1852
Father's Name Thomas Boyd [Millwright]
Spouse's Name Jane Brierley
Spouse's Age 20
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1862
Spouse's Father's Name Joseph Brierley [Collier]
Well, seeing as he's a widower, I looked for likely female deaths in Lancs - too many, so I limited to deaths rego'ed in Chorlton/Prestwich 1871-1882, & got just one:
Deaths Dec 1879 (>99%)
Boyd Mary Ann 26 Chorlton 8c 482
Marriages Dec 1872 (>99%)
BOYD William Manchester 8d 370
EATON John Manchester 8d 370
LEIGHTON Mary Ann Manchester 8d 370
MARRS Amelia Manchester 8d 370
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2967
Manchester, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1930 (Cathedral)
Name Birth Year Marriage Date Parish Spouse's Name Father's name View Images
William Boyd year date city Mary Ann Leighton Thomas Boyd
So correct father for him, BUT I CAN'T SEE FULL DETAILS
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Gosh, everyone's working so hard I can't keep up! I will have a further think and review. The several wives of William from Mary B is very interesting, and looks very likely, throwing light on the 1871 Census. They are all siblings, children of Thomas.
Margaret Elizabeth Boyd's a common name. In the 1891 Census there are THREE , all domestic servants,:
age 20, in Moss Side
age 17,in Moss Side
and the one I mentioned already as the likely one
age 15, West Gorton, in Heaton Mersey.
So, as ArgyllGran says, I may have to buy the Birth Certificate of the 1876 one to identify her parents and match to her Marriage Record.
re the horribly garbled 1871 Census mentioned by ArgyllGran, I have a further comment. The Worsencrofts (with Boyds, but without the Boyd's Head of family) are recorded at 101 and 103 Gorton Lane, and higher up the page No 113 is marked just with a number 186, and No 115 is missing. In 1891, Sarah A Boyd Widow and three identifiable children are living at No 115 Gorton Lane. Maybe the chunk of records at No 115 in 1871 was transcribed wrongly.
One of the children, Maggie Boyd, is 29 in 1891, Margaret E Boyd in 1871, and 9 days (I think, not 9 months) in 1861*. Far too old for my MEB. So lots of continuity, but no closer to being sure of Margaret Elizabeth Boyd who was (or said she was) 22 at marriage in 1898.
She's the only one I'm really interested in, as I'm tracing the line of her husband!
Thank you all so much.
Hugh
*PS You'll love this. the 1861 Census date was unusually late, at 7 April, so it's possible for someone to be estimated around 9 days old on 7 April 1861, and still be counted as 9, not 10, years old etc at later Census dates around 2 or 3 April, or even 30 March! Completely irrelevant to my search.
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All the more reason to get that Birth Cert then!...Be sure of facts...
Chris :)
(that Manchester Cathedral Marriage. Ancestry)
November 11th 1872
William, 22, Bachelor, Forgeman, 31, Cromwell St, Hyde Road. Father, Thomas Boyd, Millwright.
Mary Ann Leighton, 20, Spinster, 17 Dawson Street, Gorton Brook. Father, William Leighton, Boiler Maker. Wits. Walter Higgins, Margaret Leighton
(and 1879 Death, suggested by mgnv)
Burial
County Lancashire
Place Ardwick
Church name Cemetery
Register type
Register entry number 3262
Burial date 17 Nov 1879
Person age 26
Burial person forename Mary Ann
Burial person surname BOYD
Burial person abode Josiah St, Gorton Brook
Notes Disease: Decline
http://www.freereg.org.uk/
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re: Thomas Boyd(1823/4), and his wife Sarah Ann(1828/9), mentioned in my post 22 October. She is a widow by 1891, missing in the 1871 Census, and married in the 1861 Census. He is described as Millwright in his son's 1872 and 1882 marriage records, but missing in all censuses after being an engine fitter in the 1861 Census. I think he was in fact deceased by the 1872 marriage.
There are four deaths of Thomas Boyd between 1861 and 1871 in Chorlton. The age is only cited for one, and it is 1824. This one died Q1 1870 Chorlton, 8C p454.
There is a Sarah Ann Boyd Widow b Manchester working as "Monthly Nurse" in a family with a newborn and a one-year old in Heaton Moor in the 1871 Census. Her age is given as 41, and it "should" be 42. Just round the corner is Hawthorn Grove, Heaton Moor, where a Margaret Elizabeth Boyd is working as a servant in 1891, and may be her granddaughter (b 1876).
If the family lost Thomas Boyd, this might explain how all his children come to be accidentally lumped into the household of the Worsencrofts in the 1871 Census, as the "sons and daughters" of an absent mother.
I'm closing this enquiry now, and I might get the birth record for Margaret Elizabeth Boyd 1875/6
Hugh
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Bernadette
Re: "Birth registration Q1 1876 Chorlton, ref ARD/129/46 (Ardwick). I haven’t seen the original, Chorlton 8C p 762."
Actually, that's not the way it works. The informant went to the Ardwick subdistrict office, rego'ed the birth, and signed the register there.
At the end of the quarter, the Ardwick registrar had a copy of that quarter's births (and deaths) made. After they were checked and approved by the Chorlton RD superintendent, they (along with the copies of births & deaths from the other 3 subdistrict registrar's) were bundled together and sent to the GRO.
So, nowadays, the GRO incorporates an image of its copy into the b.cert and then certifies this "to be a true copy of an entry in the certified copy of a Register of Births in the District above mentioned". Most local offices don't have a similar ability at this time, and they are most likely to make a fresh hand-copy for you of their register.
Re: "There are four deaths of Thomas Boyd between 1861 and 1871 in Chorlton. The age is only cited for one, and it is 1824"
Here is another benefit of checking both the GRO and local indexes
Using http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
Lancashire Death indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Age or Year of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
1862 BOYD Thomas 31 Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/34/294
1863 BOYD Thomas 4 Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/37/292
1865 BOYD Thomas 0 Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/78/337
1870 BOYD Thomas 46 Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/55/208
=============================
We didn't find Margt with her gran Sarah in 1881 - lets try her other granparents
She's not there, but here's the details
Cheshire Marriage indexes for the years: 1850
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
LEIGHTON William APPLETON Jane Warrington, St Elphin Warrington C25/4/129
[Warrington is now moved to Cheshire]
1861 Census
Piece: RG9/2872 Place: Ardwick -Lancashire Enumeration District: 25
Civil Parish: Openshaw Ecclesiastical Parish: St Barnabas
Folio: 84 Page: 31 Schedule: 171
Address: 6 Novenden St
Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
LEIGHTON William Head M M 29 Boiler Maker Shropshire - Ellesmere(Originally: Shropshire - Elsmere)
LEIGHTON Jane Wife M F 36 Lancashire - Burtonwood
LEIGHTON Margret Dau - F 10 Lancashire - Burtonwood Disability: Deaf
LEIGHTON Ellen Dau - F 6 Lancashire - Manchester
LEIGHTON Betsey Dau - F 3 Lancashire - Openshaw
LEIGHTON Jane Dau - F 1 Lancashire - Openshaw
LEIGHTON Mary Ann Dau - F 8 Lancashire - Openshaw
Baptism: 20 Apr 1851 St Michael, Burtonwood, Lancs.
Elizabeth Leighton - [Child] of William Leighton & Jane
Abode: Burtonwood
Occupation: Labourer
Baptised by: W. G. Thomas
Register: Baptisms 1842 - 1865 from the Bishop's Transcripts, Page 86, Entry 681
Source: LDS Film 1469048
1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KD6J-17W
Event Place Gorton, Gorton, Lancashire, England
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/3981/0171 [rg10/3981 is an Ardwick piece #]
William Leighton Head M 38 Wellington, Shropshire - Wid - Boiler Maker
Margaret Leighton Daughter F 19 Manchester, Lancashire
Mary Leighton Daughter F 17 Manchester, Lancashire - U - Cotton Weaver
Ellen Leighton Daughter F 15 Manchester, Lancashire
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/3981/0172
Betsy Leighton Daughter F 13 Manchester, Lancashire
Jane Leighton Daughter F 11 Manchester, Lancashire
John Leighton Son M 8 Manchester, Lancashire
Cheshire/Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1851 LEIGHTON Margaret Sankey Warrington SAN/3/78 [Cheshire]
1853 LEIGHTON Mary Ann Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/57/45
1855 LEIGHTON Eleanor Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/69/55
1857 LEIGHTON Betsy Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/41/29
1860 LEIGHTON Jane Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/50/11
1863 LEIGHTON John William Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/61/16
[Burtonwood was in Sankey subdistrict]
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1869
Surname Forename(s) Age or Year of Birth Sub-District Registers At Reference
LEIGHTON Jane 47 Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/52/265
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1868[q1]
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
BROADBENT Elizabeth BRADBURY William Manchester Cathedral (formerly Manchester Collegiate Church) Archives+, Manchester Central Library CATH/168/201
1871 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBFY-CBP
Affiliate Image Identifier GBC/1871/4029/0340 [rg10/4029 is an Ancoats piece #]
Elizabeth Bradbury Head F 30 Manchester, Lancashire
Thomas Bradbury Son M 9 Manchester, Lancashire
Wm A Bradbury Son M 2 Manchester, Lancashire
Emma Broadbent Niece F 25 Manchester, Lancashire
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years:
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
1862q1 BROADBENT Thomas Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library BROADBENT ANC/101/29
1868q3 BRADBURY William Albert Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library BROADBENT ANC/129/62
1870q1 BRADBURY James William Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library BROADBENT ANC/135/89
1872q2 BRADBURY George W Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library BROADBENT ANC/146/26
1879q4 LEIGHTON Mary Ann Ardwick Archives+, Manchester Central Library ARD/157/68
Births Jun 1872 (>99%)
BRADBURY George William Manchester 8d 198
Maybe:
1870q2 BRADBURY James 0 Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library ANC/109/496
1875q3 BRADBURY William 37 Ancoats Archives+, Manchester Central Library ANC/126/64
1881 England Census
Civil Parish: Openshaw
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street address: 103 Bell St
Registration district: Chorlton [rg11/3908 is an Ardwick piece #]
ED, institution, or vessel: 64
Class: RG11; Piece: 3908; Folio: 15; Page: 23; GSU roll: 1341933
William Leighton 49 Elesmere, Shropshire, England Head M Boiler Maker
Elizabeth Leighton 41 Manchester, Lancashire, England Wife M
George Wm. Leighton 8 Manchester, Lancashire, England Son Scholar
John Walter Leighton 7 West Gorton, Lancashire, England Son Scholar
Mary Ann Leighton 1 Openshaw, Lancashire, England Daughter
Thos. Broadbent 19 Manchester, Lancashire, England Step Son Iron Turner
Wm. Albert Bradbury 12 Manchester, Lancashire, England Step Son Scholar
(not transcribed)
*** I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ANCESTRY'S "(not transcribed)" ***
It's also odd he's got another daur Mary Ann - her birth's rego'ed in the same quarter as the first Mary Ann's death, but I still think it's odd.
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hello mgnv-
Thanks for all this, I don't necessarily have to repeat the searches on these families! The death ages of Thomas Boyd tend to confirm I have the right one.
"not transcribed". I've looked at the image of the original, and Wm Albert is not on the sheet with the others. Maybe he is on the next page....no, he's not indexed on GR.
I'm using GR index and it's poor. I can't find the 1861 Census record you cite for William Leighton b 1832-3, all that comes up is a cowman with a different name!
I can't find it on Family Search either. What am I doing wrong? Where did you find this 1861 record? Ancestry?
I don't think it is all THAT odd to give a baby the names of a recently deceased baby sibling. It's only another version of the traditions of giving a child the name of a living or recently deceased parent, uncle/aunt or grandparent. It seems more odd to us because infant deaths are much less common and there are so many names to choose from. Look at the Bradburys - all the boys are called William as their first or second name.
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FS/FMP/GR all use the same transcription - they have 1861 as: William Linington
Ancestry has him as Leighton. The 1861 I posted was from FreeCEN:
http://www.freecen.org.uk/
You can always look up the the whole page by the census ref - which was
Piece: RG9/2872 Folio: 84 Page: 31
in this case.
On FMP, choose the "Search A-Z of record sets"
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/historical-records
then start typing 1861 and then pick the census, and enter the census ref in the search screen - you should omit the class # (the ho107 or rg9-rg14 bit).
On Ancestry, pick the English 1861 census:
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=8767
then enter the census ref as above.
=====================
I think it's odd to refer to a recently deceased 26 y. o. married woman as "recently deceased baby sibling. ".
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ArgyllGran (and others) re the 1871 garbled Census.
I think I've worked it out. Mother is Widow and Head. She is Sarah Ann Boyd Widow, and all the relationships in the 1871 Census from SMH Boyd Dau Unm are correct. But on the day of the Census she was working and staying ("monthly nurse") elsewhere, in Heaton Moor. So the Census taker has scratched her name out from the Gorton Lane, Gorton entry, but left all the relationships alone! and the family appears to run on from the Wolsencrofts next door.
The Boyd/Leighton lines are confused by the many early deaths and remarriages, taking children into the new marriage. It's too complicated to set out here.
Thanks everybody, I really have stopped now.
Hugh
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