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Would I be better off getting john and carrier's marriage certificate first? would that tell me their birth years?

also, back to Rachel Waters, ive just had another look at the other persons tree - and they believe that Rachel had two children - not with Thomas James - but with another, a daughter born in 1865? When I looked on census records, I did find these two children in Rachels household where she lived with her parents - but they came up as nieces to Joseph Waters... could she have had these two out of wedlock?

I think we crossed, have you seen my answer re birth cert (the post before yours, above)

I think you need John and Carrie's marriage cert anyway, to be sure of who her father was, and what his occupation was.

Quite possible children were born out of wedlock.

Is this the' nieces' in census 1871?


1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Broom, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Joseph Waters Head - Male 50 1821 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Rachel Waters Daughter - Female 25 1846 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
William Waters Son - Male 18 1853 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Joseph Waters Son - Male 13 1858 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
James Waters Son - Male 11 1860 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>>>>>>>Jane Waters Daughter - Female 7 1864 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Margaret Waters Niece - Female 6 1865 - Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<
Emely Waters Niece - Female 1 1870 - Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<<
Mary Waters Niece - Female 0 1871 - Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<

There seem to be three....


Margaret seems to be Rachel's....

First name(s) MARGARET ANN
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1865
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1865
Baptism day 14
Baptism month Apr
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Rachel<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Mother a servant.

Mary also Rachel's, can't find Emily:

First name(s) MARY
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1870
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1870
Baptism day 29
Baptism month Dec
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Rachel
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Mother a 'single woman.

Finally another child, Annie, did they know of this one??

First name(s) ANNIE<<<<<<<<<<
Last name WATERS<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth year 1884
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1884
Baptism day 27
Baptism month Feb
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Rachel<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Mother a servant.

If I got John & Carries birth certificate.. would that show their birth years? sorry, I just a bit confused... I don't want to have to wait around for one that's wrong. so if there's another way first, such as getting the marriage certificate, id rather do that.

I think it's definite that Rachel had three girls before she was even left home as they also went with her when she moved to live on her own in the 1881 census. but then theres an Amelia living with her too - who is down as her niece. The third daughter - Emily Waters, disappears from the census records.

sorry, am I making sense or just confusing everyone else too? sorry!

The marriage might give their ages, or just say o'f full age' ie over 21 if they were at the time. You have their ages in the 1911 census, but the year is taken from their age at the time of the census, so might be a year or so out, depending on when their birthdate was in relation to the census.

The 1911 census says John was aged 22, in fact he would have been about a month shy of his birthday, as the 1911 census was taken at the beginning of April.

As I said before the 2nd qtr 1881 BMD cert fits well with the birthdate of 11th may 1888 on the baptism, but I can't guaranteee it for you.

Name:
Rachel Waters

Age:
25

Estimated birth year:
abt 1846

Relation:
Daughter

Father's name:
Joseph Waters

Gender:
Female

Where born:
Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Joseph Waters 50
Rachel Waters 25
William Waters 18
Joseph Waters 13
James Waters 11
Jane Waters 7
Margaret Waters 6 <<<<<< Rachels Daughter
Emily Waters 1 <<<<<<< I believe she is Rachels daughter - but cant find her after this
Mary Waters 6 Months <<<<< Rachels Daughter

Natalie - have you seen the baptism I posted for a 4th daur for Rachel, Annie?

Thanks Kucinta - your probably fed up of me by now! :-|

Just seen it... I found an Amelia there, but not an Annie - seems she was a busy bee back in the day if she had these children.. but their father is unknown.. which leads me to believe further that she didn't have any children once she married Thomas James...as she had already had 3/4

Not a problem - at least you're examinig all the evidence you/we can find, and not just taking anyone's word at face value, which can be easy to do when someone shares their tree with you. :-)

It's also a question of putting all the pieces of evidence we can glean together to build up as complete a picture as possible.

Annie goes to school:


First name(s) Annie
Last name Waters
Birth year 1884
Birth date 15 Feb 1884<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Event year 1888
School name Begelly School
Town Begelly
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Parent name(s) Waters Rachael<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SSR/1/2/5
Folio / page no. -
Archive Pembrokeshire Archives
Record set National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914

Mary goes to school:

First name(s) Mary
Last name Waters
Birth year 1870
Birth date 07 Oct 1870<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Event year 1877
School name Begelly School
Town Begelly
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Parent name(s) Rachel Waters<<<<<<<<<<<<
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SSR/1/2/5
Folio / page no. -
Archive Pembrokeshire Archives
Record set National School Admission Registers & Log-books 1870-1914

Wow thanks! I couldn't find the Annie myself but I'll have a look.

The contact I have here has this on his tree.

Rachel Waters - two children - Mary and Margaret ( father unknown )
Rachel Waters - siblings - William and Jane Waters
Rachel Waters - parents - Joseph Waters (1821) and Unknown
Rachel Waters - marriage - Thomas James (1891)

But then he has Joseph married to an Anne having: Ben, Elizabeth, John, Anne, Joseph and James.

^^ I had these in my tree but with the same parents as Rachel Jane and William - but maybe they were children from first and the rest from a second marriage.

These ancestors didn't make things easy for me I must say!!

this is the 1881. Personally I think niece Emily in the 1871, might be Amelia, possibly a miswriteup by the census enumerator when compiling the census book Note this time Margaret Ann and Mary are described as daur, but Amelia as niece.:


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Broom Lane, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Rachel Waters Head Single Female 35 1846 Farm Servant Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Margaret Ann Waters Daughter Single Female 16 1865 Domestic Servant Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Amelia Waters Niece Single Female 11 1870 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Mary Waters Daughter Single Female 10 1871 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Emily and Amelia are approximately the same age.

Amelia's mother is given as 'Lizzie' a servant, on her baptism

First name(s) AMELIA
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1869
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1869
Baptism day 05
Baptism month Dec
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Lizzie<<<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

EDIT: Is 'Lizzie', Amelia's mother, rachel and Jane's sister Eliza/Elizabeth Waters born c1849? Perhaps as Rachel already had little Margaret, she got landed with the care of her sister Lizzie's baby as well, then went on to have a further two, Mary and Annie, herself.

Kucinta - you are just too good. as I read that I completely agree as if you say Emily and Amelia - they sound so much alike and I could understand how they would be spelt incorrectly. thank you.

So who is Elizabeth/Lizzie?

I've proposed that Lizzie/Elizabeth/Eliza is the younger sister to Rachel, older sister to Jane Waters.

see census 1861:

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Withy Bed, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Joseph Waters Head Married Male 42 1819 Engine Driver Pembrokeshire, Wales
Anne Waters Wife Married Female 38 1823 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Ben Waters Son Unmarried Male 18 1843 Miner Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>>Elizabeth Waters Daughter Unmarried Female 12 1849 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
John Waters Son Unmarried Male 10 1851 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
William Waters Son Unmarried Male 8 1853 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Anne Waters Daughter Unmarried Female 5 1856 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Joseph Waters Son Unmarried Male 3 1858 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire Wales
James Waters Son Unmarried Male 1 1860 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Possible baptism as Eliza:

First name(s) ELIZA
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1848
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1848
Baptism day 17
Baptism month Sep
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Ann
Father's first name(s) Joseph
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Amelia goes to school, with Rachel in the parent or guardian column:

First name(s) Amelia
Last name Waters
Birth year 1869
Birth date 15 Oct 1869
Event year 1876
School name Begelly School
Town Begelly
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Parent name(s) Rachel Waters<<<<<<<<<<<
Book type Admissions
Archive reference SSR/1/2/5

More on Lizzie/Elizabeth.


I think this might be her in 1881 in Tenby:

Name: Elizabeth Waters
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Housemaid
Gender: Female
Where born: Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Civil Parish: Tenby St Mary in Liberty
County/Island: Pembrokeshire
Country: Wales
Street address: 6 Croft Terrace
Education:
Employment status:
Occupation: Housemaid<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Registration district: Pembroke

and that she married there in 1884:

First name(s) ELIZABETH
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1849
Marriage year 1884
Marriage day 4
Marriage month Sep
Place TENBY
Spouse's first name(s) WILLIAM
Spouse's last name BELT
Bride's age 35
Groom's age 39
Bride's parish -
Groom's parish -
Bride's father's first name(s) Joseph
Bride's father's last name Waters
Groom's father's first name(s) James
Groom's father's last name Belt
Parish Tenby

Bride's father is Joseph Waters, a deceased engine driver.
EDIT: Groom is an Ironmonger, and his father a deceased labourer.

Elizabeth, here called Lizzie, in Tenby in 1871:

Name: Lizzie Waters<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1849<<<<<<<<<<<<
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Beyolley, Pembrokeshire, Wales [Begelly on census image]<<<<<<
Civil Parish: St Mary Tenby In Liberty
Ecclesiastical parish: St David
Town: Tenby
County/Island: Pembrokeshire
Country: Wales
Registration district: Pembroke
Sub-registration district: Tenby

Looks like Rachel got to keep house for her widowed father, and bring up her own and her sister's illegitimate daughters, as well as her own younger siblings like Jane; and Lizzie/Elizabeth got to go out and at least earn her own keep, possibly to send back money to the family?

This could well be Lizzie's death in 1894:

Deaths Mar 1894 BELT Elizabeth 45 Pembroke 11a 684

She is here recorded as Bell in 1891, and seems to have had a daughter of her marriage:


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Frog Street, St Mary Tenby in Liberty, Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales

William Bell Head Married Male 46 1845 Ironmonger Carew, Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>Elizabeth Bell Wife Married Female 44 1847 - Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Elsie Bell Daughter Single Female 6 1885 Scholar Tenby, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Phoebe Bell Mother Widow Female 73 1818 - Loveston, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Thomas Bell Brother Widower Male 44 1847 Builder Carew, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Frederick Williams Servant Single Male 19 1872 Ironmonger Pembroke Dock, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Her daughter:

Births Mar 1885 BELT Elsie Phoebe Pembroke 11a 969

I'm away from my laptop now but Kucinta I really do appreciate all your help. You are a professional! I could never have found out all of this information without your help. You have been amazing x