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Philip died as an infant:

First name(s) PHILLIP
Last name WATERS
Birth year 1862
Death year -
Death day -
Death month -
Age 0
Burial year 1862
Burial day 10
Burial month Jul
Parish BEGELLY
Country Wales
County Pembrokeshire
Mother's first name(s) -
Father's first name(s) -
Husband's first name(s) -
Page 6
Record set Pembroke Burials

Great! Thanks so much. I've been searching for that information. what did you use? I'm pretty confident then that the person I am messaging is in fact a relative along the lines! you are all such amazing people helping me do this xxxx

if I knew what I was doing properly, then i'd offer my own services in return. ... but I am hopeless!

Great! Thanks so much. I've been searching for that information. what did you use? I'm pretty confident then that the person I am messaging is in fact a relative along the lines! you are all such amazing people helping me do this xxxx

if I knew what I was doing properly, then i'd offer my own services in return. ... but I am hopeless!

On Pembroke baptisms/burials on FMP.

The 1871, 1861, 1851 census summaries for Joseph and Ann's children, I just went back and cut and pasted what I'd posted earlier in this thread.

I belive I pmed you the census images yesterday , so you can check them for yourself.

yes that's right. thanks so much Kucinta.

This is the correct track you think?

I think it is, but you need to look at the evidence we have presented on this thread and evaluate it for yourself.

Might also be worth investing in another cert or two to confirm things -

Maybe the marriage of John Waters to Caroline Owen to get the details for her
father?

Marriages Dec 1909
OWEN Caroline Bridgend 11a 1394
WATERS John Bridgend 11a 1394

Maybe John's birth cert?

Births Jun 1888 WATERS John Narberth 11a 968

if that confirms Jane to be his mother:

Then maybe marriage of Jane Waters to Thomas Harries in 1890 to see if her father was Joseph (Although I think the circumstantial evidence we've put together on this thread makes it seem certain that he is, but it's how much evidence you feel you need to be sure of things)

Marriages Sep 1890
HARRIER Thomas Narberth 11a 1481<<<<<<<<<<
Harries Thomas Narberth 11a 1481<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
HARRIES Thoams Narberth 11a 1481<<<<<<<<<<
Humphreys David Narberth 11a 1481
Thomas Elizabeth Narberth 11a 1481
Waters Jane Narberth 11a 1481<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I thiink you should get John's marriage cert, and possibly his birth cert as well, and take it from there.

Thank you for the wonderful advice and help. I will look into getting some certificates i think - just to be sure. Thanks!!

Let's hope they don't take as ,long!!!!!!

Could anyone help?

I'm trying to work out some information with regards to John Waters, Mother Jane and sister Rachel who was his guardian.


I'm a little confused as there is a RachAEl Waters and a Rachel Waters.. could this be the same person?

I have found someone here that has Rachel and Thomas James on their tree and Rachels sister Jane.

I know people found records of people who lived at the same address before and found Rachel, John and Jane Waters in the same household.. But the person I have contact with says that his Thomas James was widowed (Jane Rogers) and they had a child Emma born in 1858) but I don't remember anyone saying that later, when Rachel and Thomas were married - that there was an Emma living with them?

Sorry, maybe I'm just having a dull moment. I've searched through Cencus Records .. and found the Jane Rogers living with a Thomas James at the same place that later Rachel Waters was living with him?

Sorry everyone!

Quick answer, if Emma James was born 1858, then she would have been in her 30s by the time Rachel is working for widowed Thomas James in the 1891 census, so she had probably married and left home - we were more interested in your Waters line rather than the line of John's uncle by marriage.

Re Rachel and Rachael, variants in name spelling for an individual are par for the course.

Will see what I can find.

???

First name(s) THOMAS
Last name JAMES
Birth year -
Marriage year 1851
Marriage day 30
Marriage month Sep
Place STEYNTON
Spouse's first name(s) JANE
Spouse's last name ROGERS
Bride's age Full
Groom's age Full
Bride's parish -
Groom's parish -
Bride's father's first name(s) Williams
Bride's father's last name Rogers
Groom's father's first name(s) Thomas
Groom's father's last name James
Parish Steynton
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Marriages

Edit: Groom was a farmer, so was his father and his father in law.


????

My geography is terrible, so no idea how feasible these places/locations are:

First name(s) EMMA ELIZABETH
Last name JAMES
Birth year 1858
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1858
Baptism day 21
Baptism month Nov
Place LOVESTON
Mother's first name(s) Jane
Father's first name(s) Thomas
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

EDIT: Father a farmer

This is probably the marriage of the Emma Elizabeth baptised at Loveston, as it comes under Haverford West, but purely speculative at the moment.

Marriages Sep 1878
JAMES Emma Elizabeth Haverfordwest 11a 1021
Williams David Haverfordwest 11a 1021

On the marriage of Thomas James to Jane Rogers, his father is Thomas, a farmer. Likewise on the marriage to Rachel Waters, Thomas James has father also Thomas James, deceased, but describes him as labourer rather than farmer. This may still be the same man, maybe he was an agricultural labourer/farm worker.

Ok, following the James diversion:

Here is Thomas in 1861 with wife Jane and daur E. His birthplace of Camrose tallies with the 1891 census.


1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Loveston Farm, 2, Loveston Wood, Loveston, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Thomas James Head Married Male 32 1829 Farmer 147 Acres Employing 1 Boy Camrose, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Jane James Wife Married Female 41 1820 - Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales
... E James Daughter - Female 2 1859 - Loveston, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Thomas Reymonds Servant Unmarried Male 24 1837 General Servant Clarbeston, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Margaret Day Servant Unmarried Female 21 1840 General Servant Manorbier, Pembrokeshire, Wales

By 1871 the family including Daur Emma E have moved to Begelly:

1871 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Thomas Chapel, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Thomas James Head - Male 41 1830 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Jane James Wife - Female 50 1821 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Emma E James Daughter - Female 12 1859 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Margaret James Servant - Female 25 1846 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Rees Davies Servant - Male 20 1851 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
Stephen Davies Servant - Male 21 1850 - Pembrokeshire, Wales

By 1881 Emma E has disappeared from the household (maybe because she married in 1878 as I posted???)


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Thomas Chapel, Begelly, Narberth, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Thomas James Head Married Male 50 1831 Farmer Of 150 Acres Employing 2 Boys Hayscastle, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Jane James Wife Married Female 60 1821 - Pembrokeshire, Wales
James Adams Servant Single Male 22 1859 Farm Servant (Indoor) Pembrokeshire, Wales
Henry Adams Servant Single Male 16 1865 Farm Servant (Indoor) Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Looks like Jane James nee Rogers died not that long before the 1891 census, so she may well have shared the house with servant Rachel Waters before her death:

The censuses show Jane was some 9 years older than Thomas, born c1820/21.

First name(s) JANE
Last name JAMES
Birth year 1820<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Death year -
Death day -
Death month -
Age 71
Burial year 1891
Burial day 17
Burial month Mar
Parish BEGELLY<<<<<<<<<<<<
Country Wales
County Pembrokeshire

Looks like Emma James, now Mrs Williams had moved to Hackney, London by census 1881:

1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census

71, Lansdowne Road, Hackney, London, England

David Williams Head Married Male 24 1857 Police Constable Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>>>Emma E Williams Wife Married Female 23 1858 - Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales

Their birthplaces are just South Wales, Pembrokeshire, not Pembroke, on the census images.


and here they are in 1891, showing Emma Elizabeth's birthplace as LOVESTON as per the baptism I posted for Emma Elizabeth James daur of Thomas and Jane James, earlier. So the 1878 Haverford West registered marriage looks pretty good now.


1891 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Thomas Street, St Mary Pembroke, Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales

David Williams Head Married Male 35 1856 Police Officer Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire, Wales
>>>>>>Emma Elizabeth Williams Wife Married Female 32 1859 - Loveston, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Lucy Ellen Williams Daughter - Female 8 1883 Scholar Begelly, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Thomas Jh Ll Williams Son - Male 6 1885 - Wiston, Pembrokeshire, Wales
William A F Williams Son - Male 4 1887 - Pembroke Dock
Eva Maria Williams Daughter - Female 0 1891 - Pembroke

Just as a note, it look like David William may have left and then rejoined the police between 1881 and 1891. In the 1891 census above, daur Lucy Ellen is listed as born Begelly c 1883.

This is her baptism:

First name(s) LUCY ELLEN
Last name WILLIAMS
Birth year 1882
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1882
Baptism day 09
Baptism month Jul
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Emma Elizabeth
Father's first name(s) David
County Pembrokeshire

on the baptism register her father David Williams is described as a farmer.
Did Emma Elizabeth and her husband go back to her father's farm and try and help him run it for a while, but it didn't work out in the long term?

Emma Elizabeth and David Williams had a daughter Eliza Jane baptised at Begelly in 1880, again, David was described as a farmer not a police officer:

First name(s) ELIZA JANE
Last name WILLIAMS
Birth year 1880
Birth day -
Birth month -
Baptism year 1880
Baptism day 08
Baptism month Aug
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Emma Elizabeth
Father's first name(s) David
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms

Births Sep 1880 WILLIAMS Eliza Jane Narberth 11a 839

Looks like little Eliza Jane made the move to Hackney where her parents were in the 1881 census I posted, but she died before the census took place:

Deaths Mar 1881 WILLIAMS Eliza Jane 0 Hackney 1b 363

Thank you for all the information. It was mainly just confirmation about the Thomas James that the other person had on their tree as they have a lot of the Waters line on their and wanted to see if they were actually the same family.

I was going to buy John Waters' birth certificate, but when I tried looking at his birth year, it varies - one is I thin 1888 and the other 1889? I don't know what date I should put in as I don't want the wrong one.


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915?
Birth, Baptism & Christening
View Image

Name: John Waters
Birth: Apr 1888 - Narberth, Pembrokeshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915Birth, Baptism & Christening
View Image

Name: John Waters
Birth: Jan 1889 - Narberth, Pembrokeshire

Going by the baptism:

First name(s) JOHN<<<<<<<<<<<<
Last name WATERS<<<<<<<<<<
Birth year 1888
Birth day 11<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Birth month May<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism year 1888<<<<<<<<<<<
Baptism day 03
Baptism month Jul
Place BEGELLY
Mother's first name(s) Jane<<<<<<<<
Father's first name(s) -
County Pembrokeshire
Country Wales
Record set Pembroke Baptisms
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

this cert:

Births Jun 1888 WATERS John Narberth 11a 968

tallies best with the birthdate of 11th May 1888, but these things are always a bit of a gamble.

EDIT: I suspect this is the death of the John waters whose birth was registered 1st qtr 1889:

Name: John Waters
Birth Date: 13 Feb 1889
Date of Registration: Jun 1975
Age at Death: 86
Registration district: Swansea
Inferred County: West Glamorgan
Volume: 27
Page: 2118