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the Winifred Violet Bartlett 1908 has a father Frederick Jacob Bartlett
mother Margaret Bartlett

she appears on elec roll with family 1930 / 31/ 32 after which she married
Harry Tolman -- so not the Winifred wanted

may be the one who married 1939 to Frank V O'Higgins

Mavis

Can't make out the witnesses at all as they're signatures which is a pain. Yeah I'll have to get the Certs really, I've got a few to get but it'll have to wait till payday!

well that's a clue then -- right address was the number the same

Winifred V Houghton = Albert C Thorn -- Dec Q 1988 - Ealing - 12 108

Winifred Violet Thorn -- Date of birth 29 - 4 - 1915 died Dec Q 1994 Ealing

a copy of this marriage would tell you if father was a Joseph Bartlett and if so we would be on the right track -- a death cert should tell you what relation the informer
was to the person who died -- which can be very helpful

who are the witnesses on Lawrence and Winifred marriage

Mavis

Lawrence married Mary Madigan in 1933 in kensington and had there first child which was John in 1933 as well then went on to have 3 more children....one of which was my nan so I'm just really annoyed at him that he left them all and didn't contact them again and just started this new life.

I don't know if he had multiple partners...I haven't heard anything regarding a Victoria though. He's address was still Ashley road when he died in 1977 residing with Winifred.

may have found Lawrence Houghton 1965 on Elect.roll in Newham.

9 Ashley Road

Lawrence Houghton - J
Victoria Houghton ??? did he have different partners.

there are other Lawrence's but spelt Laurence in Ealing one with a Vera P

he seems to have been in Chelsea / Kennington 1935 / 1936 where he married and 1st child born ..

Newham is classed as Essex was East and West Ham Districts and Waltham Forest is near enough next door Walthamstow / Leyton/ Chingford / Cann Hall
also classed as Essex.

Mavis

I'm assuming Lawrence went to London when he left birmingham, he literally just upped and left and never contacted his family in birmingham again.

Ok maybe the Tolman marriage isn't right as on the marriage cert of Lawrence it states she's 59 and this is the year 1974 so she has to be born 1914/1915 unless she lied! Lol, her previous marriage was a divorce though.

I would have to get her death certificate to find exact date of her birth and where it was.

Still together in 1945, so my divorce theory is wrong, as he died that year.
(Unless they divorced in 1945 - clutching at straws here!):

Harry E Tolman
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965

Name: Harry E Tolman (with Winfred V)
Year: 1945
County or Borough: Islington
Ward or Division/Constituency: Islington
Street address: 168 I0

Harry & Winfred are together in 1939:

Winifred Violet Tolman
in the London, England, Electoral Registers, 1832-1965

Name: Winifred Violet Tolman (with Harry Edward)
Year: 1939
County or Borough: Islington
Ward or Division/Constituency: Islington North and South
Street address: 242 2s6

Here's a 1908 birth:

Births Mar 1908 (>99%)
Bartlett Winifred Violet Pancras 1b 136

That would certainly tie in with the 1932 Pancras marriage.

But still no idea if it's the right person! You'd have to buy either the marriage or birth cert to see father's name.

Unfortunately, Jan/Feb/March quarter is wrong for a birthday in April, as was stated on Winifred Thorn's death cert.
IF she's the same Winifred!

Ashleigh, you say that even if Winifred was born overseas, there would be some sort of record.

Yes, but we only have access to certain countries' BMD's online, so it would depend where she was born.

Lawrence is on the Birmingham elec roll 1945 -- is it known where he went to
live after that ? Is it known when he moved to London


trying to work out if he appears on the London elec roll ? with Winifred as she
seems to be from around Ealing / Brentford area .
But if its after 1964 then we wont find them

The Ancy. tree for Harry Edward S Tolman has Winifred Violet Bartlett born 1908
for which there is a birth ??

Mavis

Hiiii

I haven't abandoned or ignored this post, I've been on long days past couple days so haven't been on and only just got home now.


Good shout on the Tolman marriage, that could possibly be a match for her first marriage and the o'higgins. The marriage cert for Winifred and Lawrence was in 1974 but previous surname does just says 'change by deed poll' and states previous marriage devolved. Lawrence didn't want to divorce his previous wife which was Mary Madigan so he just decided to wait till she died. He left Mary in about 1947/48.

Joseph Bartlett (Winifreds dad) doesn't have a profession on there. But even if she was born overseas surely there would be some sort of record.

would be nice if Ashleigh could perhaps give us a few more details on
both of the Houghtons

how long they lived together ?

did it say on the marriage what Joseph 's job may have been ?


Mavis

I understand what you're saying about Winifred Bartlett who married Harry Tolman.

However, I was guessing she might have divorced Harry, on or before meeting Lawrence.
We don't know what surname she was using before changing it to Houghton.

Does the marriage cert to Lawrence say what her first married name was?

Does it say when she changed her name by deed poll, to give us an idea of how long she and Lawrence were together?
They might have been together, unmarried, for 30 or 40 years.

been following this with interest so my ideas !!

as there seems to be no birth cert that fits for Winifred Violet Bartlett 1914 ish could she be Irish ?? or born illigit and mother married later to a Joseph Bartlett ??

the Winifred V Bartlett who married Harry Edward S Tolman as Harry died 1945 she dos'nt seem to have remarried so there would not have been a divorce as stated about Winifred V Bartlett/Hougton -- perhaps she died after 2006

I have had a study of the Winifred V Bartlett who married Frank/Francis Victor O'Higgins Sep Q 1939 Brentford 3a 1608
Winifred and Frank/Francis are together after 2nd world war on the elec roll in Ealing to 1963 at least -- they had 3 children 2 born Somerset because of the war
and 1 in Brentford but they all married in Ealing

Frank died june 1983 Ealing -- Dob - 10 Nov 1914
again no death or marriage for Winifred V O'Higgins unless again it was after 2006
so I surpose the way to find out if either of the Winifreds was a Violet and had a father Joseph would be to have a copy of the marriage [s]

there is a Joseph Bartlett who married a Ann M Tolly Mar Q 1920 Brentford 3a 396
no Bartlett/Tolly births so was she a widow ?

was there any occupation for Joseph Bartlett presume dec.


that's my say

Mavis

Long shot for her first marriage:

Marriages Dec 1932 (>99%)
Bartlett Winifred V Tolman Pancras 1b 76
Tolman Harry E S Bartlett Pancras 1b 76

No children of the marriage, per FreeBMD.


Harry died, but I can't see a death for a Winifred V Tolman:

Harry E S Tolman
in the England & Wales, Death Index, 1916-2007

Name: Harry E S Tolman
Birth Date: abt 1906
Date of Registration: Dec 1945
Age at Death: 39
Registration district: Southend on Sea
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 811

Was her father's occupation recorded on the marriage cert?

Have you tried to find her first marriage?

Just for elimination, re: the Queensland Education Gazette that GlitterBaby mentioned above - it is a false result, on the image it's a Winifred MAY Bartlett.

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
BIDDLE George William ALLEN Selina Gloucester Gloucester Register Office 1911 24 88

?????? Although the partners may not mix

Marriages Dec 1911 (>99%)
Allen Selina Gloucester 6a 703
Bartlett Joe Gloucester 6a 703
Biddle George W Gloucester 6a 703
Preece Annie E Gloucester 6a 703