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I'd tried looking to see if CJOL turned up either on London or Surrey ERs, but had no joy.

Winnifred Kate was born at 70 Great Percy Street which is in the Kings Cross area of London. Area pretty upscale now

Thinking about it - you wondered if Thyza were in India when CJOL was carrying on with Mary Brown, but I'm not so sure.

Going back to earlier in the thread, in 1901 Thyrza and CJOL were staying with the Cosnights at 4, Royal Parade, Eastbourne, Sussex, England, and the Kelly's Directory entry I found showed Charles was living, or working from 5 Grand Parade, London Road, Croydon, by 1902. Thyza's death is registered in the Croydon area in 1906.

I can't see a married woman travelling on her own to India, and she did die in the Croydon area. So did the couple break up and live apart, or was Mary CJOL's bit on the side?


Winifred Kate ihad her birth registered in the Holborn area even though mother Mary's family tended to move round the Surrey/Croydon area.

Was there an address on Winifred Kate's birth cert?

Wonder at what point did CJOL decide to go back to India?

On his death record, Charles James Lissant is no longer a jeweller/watchmaker, but a commsn agent (presumably commision agent) for Mitchell c/o. Thee is no cause of death recorded (only case on the page where this is so), he is 'buried by a coroner's warrant'.

I can't find any trace of a will or probate, either in India or in the Uk.

Pleased to help. :-)

Slightly smug that my gut feeling about Winifred's parentage was half right - not sure anyone could have anticipated Mary - though having said that we did look for Brown - Lissant marriages first time round and drew a blank...

Does seem a tad ironic it was Thyrza's death in Croydon that drew me to CJOL and their marriage, when as it turns out she had no relationship to Winifred Kate at all!

Also CJOL did seem slightly further up the social ladder than the Brown family, so it's good to know now how his daughter came to be living with them in 1911.

Mary is probably going to be ? for awhile. Interesting that she implies on Winnifred birth reg that she is married when Thirza still alive and in 1911 states she is a widow wnen Charles James does not die until August but she would not know that.
Thanks for all the help Kucinta. Very much appreciated.

Well, as you can see from my previous post, Mary was still going by Lessant/Lissant in 1911, and claiming to be a widow.

Can't find travel details for Thyrza, or even when CJO Lissant went back to India. I assume as Thyrza died in Croydon, she rejoined CJOL, but did she know about Mary and the baby?

I had wondered about how late in the marriage the birth was (given CJOL and Thyrza married in 1891) , when I assumed Thyza was the mother because I felt sure CJO Lissant was the father; the fact that he impregnated another woman entirely explains that :-D

Can't see an obvious marriage under Lessant; Brown would be hard to identify!

London ERS have a Mary Lessant living 125 Kirkwood Rd, Camberwell , Peckham Polling District with an Arthur Thomas Woodbridge and a Clara Woodbridge from at least 1923-1934. No way of knowing if she was a servant, related, or just sharing a house, or even if she is 'your' Mary.

Matters are complicated by a Mary S Lissant, probably Mary Sophia Lissant, born India, who is also residing in London c1920 through 1952, can't be sure I'm not getting the wrong Mary ( the two are actually cousins, as Mary Sophia is a daughter of CJOL's half brother Harry Samuel Lissant).

The 1901 and 1911 are a good match.

I was wondering what became of Mary in the 1911 census. Did she marry ? Did she go to India . I think that with a name like hers it would be difficult to find her.
There are probably more questions than answers re Charles,Thirza and Mary.

Mary 'Lissant' in 1911?

Note age and birthplace tally with Mary Brown details I posted previously. Mary is claiming to be a widow. I think the other maid/cook is her mother, Emma Brown.

They are living in kenley, so pretty close to Croydon.

Name: Mary Lessant
Age in 1911: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation to Head: Maid (Employee)
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Epsom
Civil Parish: Coulsdon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address: Friern House, Valley Road Kenley, Surrey
Marital Status: Widowed
Occupation: Cook
Registration district: Croydon

Household Members:
Name Age
William Ridley Kent 63 c1848 Norwood, Surrey, England
Agnes Kent 34 wife c177 Finchley
Madeleine Agnes Kent 30 daur c 1881 Kensington, Essex, England
Emma Brown 49 maid/cook c1862 Godstone married 31 years 9 children 6 still living <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mary Lessant 30 maid/cook c1881 Epsom widowed no length of marriage, 1 child born, 1 child livng, then the info about children crossed out.<<<<<<<<<<

Baptism for William Brown, with father named Henry? Blindley Heath v close to Godstone:

Name: William Brown
Baptism Date: 19 Feb 1860
Archive Provided Parish: Blindley Heath, St John
Parish as it Appears: Blindley Heath, Godstone<<<<<
Father: Henry Brown
Mother: Mary Brown
Reference Number: 3804/1/1

Image says father a labourer, address Godstone Station.

Baptism for an Emma Peters with father named William in Godstone. Emma's birth a little more varied, in census 1901 she's younger than William, on the marriage register she's older.

Name: Emma Peters
Baptism Date: 10 Apr 1859
Archive Provided Parish: Godstone, St Nicholas
Parish as it Appears: Godstone
Father: William Peters
Mother: Sarah Peters
Reference Number: P25/1/48

Abode Godstone, father a labourer.

Marriage for Mary's parents?

Name: William Brown - labourer
Age: 20
Birth Year: abt 1860
Marriage Date: 12 Dec 1880
Archive Provided Parish: Epsom, Christ Church
Parish as it Appears: Epsom, Christ Church
Spouse: Emma Peters
Spouse Age: 22
Father: Henry Brown - labourer
Spouse Father: William Peters - labourer
Reference Number: 2582/3

Both bride and groom give their abode as Epsom Common, as for Mary's baptism.

Witnesses were Edward Marsh and Mary Ann Marsh.

Mary's baptism:

Name: Mary Brown
Baptism Date: 15 May 1881
Archive Provided Parish: Epsom, Christ Church
Parish as it Appears: Epsom, Christ Church
Father: William Brown
Mother: Emma Brown
Reference Number: 2582/1

Abode: Epsom Common, father a labourer.

My gut feeling is that this is Mary Lissant nee Brown. Her father William is the head of house hold from the 1911, and some of this Mary's siblings are also present in the 1911 census:

Census 1901

Name: Mary Brown
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation to Head: Daughter (Child)
Gender: Female
Father: William Brown
Mother: Emma Brown
Birth Place: Epsom, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Merstham
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
Town: South Merstham
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Household Members:
Name Age
William Brown 41 c1860 Godstone, Surrey, England Railway labourer
Emma Brown 40 c1861 Godstone, Surrey, England
Mary Brown 19 c1882 Epsom, Surrey, England<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Edith Brown 12 c1889 Bletchingley, Surrey, England
Rose Brown 9 c1892 Dorking, Surrey, England
Emily Brown 7 c1894 Dorking, Surrey, England
Beatrice Brown 65 c189 Whitley, Surrey, England ( I think that should be Whiteleaf)
William Brown 5 c1896 Whitley, Surrey, England ( I think that should be Whiteleaf)

Whiteleafe is fairly close to Croydon.

Still leaves us wih the issue of 'Mary Lissant' fomerly Brown,but I guess that means Winifred Kate does have a blood link to the Brown family she was living with in 1911.

Repeated here to save flicking back:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census

90 Fairholme Road Croydon, Croydon, Surrey, England

William Brown Head Married Male 51 1860 Goldstone General Labourer
Edith Emma Brown Daughter Single Female 21 1890 Bletchingley Servant
Rose Amy Brown Daughter Single Female 19 1892 Dorking Ser
Emily Brown Daughter Single Female 17 1894 Dorking Servant
Beatrice May Brown Daughter Single Female 16 1895 Warlingham Servant
Richard Philip Brown Son - Male 9 1902 Purley -
Winifred Kate Liss Daughter - Female 7 1904 Croydon <<<<<

Annie remarried:

First name(s) Annie
Last name Lissant
Marriage year 1883
Marriage date 1 Nov 1883
Spouse's first name Jeremiah
Spouse's last name Saxon
Place Dinapore St Luke
Presidency Bengal
Groom's father's first name Maurice
Groom's father's last name Saxon
Bride's father's first name James<<<<<
Bride's father's last name Ogden<<<<<
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-186
Folio number 57
Entry number -
Record set British India Office marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Record

Both were of full age. Both were widowed. Her father is James Ogden as per her marriage to John Hiram Lissant in 1859.

Jeremiah died in Dorset:

Probate:

Name: Jeremiah Saxon
Probate Date: 30 May 1900
Death Date: 22 Nov 1899
Death Place: Dorset, England
Registry: Blandford

army-pensioner admin to Annie Saxon widow Effects £291 18s 6d.

and death:

Name: Jeremiah Saxon
Birth Year: abt 1829
Age: 70
Burial Date: 24 Nov 1899
Burial Place: Melcombe Regis, Dorset, England
Of 48 Brownlow St.

Annis is living with son Archdale in 1901

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census

8, Newman Street, St Marylebone, Marylebone, London, England

Archdale H Lissant Head Married Male 40 1861 Ship Steward & Carver India
Alice Lissant Wife Married Female 40 1861 - Dinas Cross, Pembrokeshire, Wales
Annie Saxon Mother Widow Female 62 1839 Living On Own Means London, Middlesex, England <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Edward R Duff Boarder Single Male 33 1868 Artist Portugal
Robert E Duff Boarder Single Male 22 1879 Bank Clerk Portugal

This is probably Annie's death, though age is a little out with census 1901, but in same area as she was living in that census:

Deaths Mar 1908 SAXON Annie 72 Marylebone 1a 397


I think this is her with her parents in 1851. Note presence of Thos Cortright, who is James' apprentice (James Ogden is a gold ring maker). I suspect Thos is the same Thos Cosnight, jeweller, who was cousin to Charles James Ogden Lissant and uncle to Thyrza Abraham in census 1881, which I posted on page one of this thread, certainly they were both born c1830, in the London/Bermondsey area.:

Name: Mary A Ogden
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Daughter (Child)
Father's name: James Ogden
Mother's name: Mary E Ogden
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England
Civil Parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James

Household Members:
Name Age
James Ogden 41<<<<
Mary E Ogden 39
Mary A Ogden 14<<<<<<
Thos Cortright 21<<<<<
Matilda Welsh 26

James Ogden was born Manchester c 1810, wife Mary E was born London c1812.

Second marriage:

John remarried as a widower to Mary Anne Ogden:

First name(s) John Hiram
Last name Lissant
Marriage year 1859
Marriage date 26 Feb 1859
Spouse's first name Mary Anne
Spouse's last name Ogden
Place Calcutta
Presidency Bengal
Groom's father's first name Henry Dunn
Groom's father's last name Lissant
Bride's father's first name James
Bride's father's last name Ogden
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-95
Folio number 61A
Entry number -
Record set British India Office marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

They also had children, born both in India and England:

First name(s) Archdale Horace John
Last name Lissant
Baptism year 1860
Birth year 1860
Place St John's Church Old Cathedral Calcutta
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Annie
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) John Hiram
Father's last name Lissant
Baptism date 4 Oct 1860
Birth date 06 Jul 1860
Archive reference N-1-98
Folio 277
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal

Two born in England:

Births Sep 1862 LISSANT Sydney Herbert Horam Edmonton 3a 116

Births Dec 1864 LISSANT Charles James Ogden Edmonton 3a 129<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Back to India

First name(s) Alfred William Bell
Last name Lissant
Baptism year 1868
Birth year 1868
Place Mussoorie
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Annie
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) John Hiram
Father's last name Lissant
Baptism date 22 Jul 1868

John died of senility in India:

First name(s) John Miram
Last name Lissant
Birth year 1810
Death date 26 Jun 1878
Death year 1878
Age 68Y 8M
Burial date 27 Jun 1878
Place Chowringhee
Presidency Bengal
Archive Reference N-1-164
Folio -
Page 249
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Record set British India Office deaths & burials
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records

First marriage and children:

A merchant, John Hiram Lissant married at least twice in India:

First name(s) John
Last name Lissant
Marriage year 1836
Marriage date 1 Nov 1836
Spouse's first name Mary
Spouse's last name Green
Place Kurnaul
Presidency Bengal
Groom's father's first name -
Groom's father's last name -
Bride's father's first name -
Bride's father's last name -
Catalogue description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Archive reference N-1-45
Folio number 118
Entry number -
Record set British India Office marriages
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces

they had more than one child born in India:

Name:
Sarah Lissant
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
31 Mar 1839
Christening Place:
KURNAUL, BENGAL, INDIA
Birth Date:
11 Dec 1838
Birthplace:
KURNAUL BENGAL INDIA
Father's Name:
John Hiram Lissant
Mother's Name:
Mary
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C75004-3 , System Origin: India-EASy , GS Film number: 498976 , Reference ID: v 53 p 65

Sarah died as an infant:

Name:
Sarah Lissant
Gender:
Female
Burial Date:
26 Apr 1839
Burial Place:
Kurnaul, Begal, India
Age:
0
Birth Date:
1839
Occupation:
Child
Father's Name:
John Hiram Lissant
Mother's Name:
Mary
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: B39313-5 , System Origin: India-EASy , GS Film number: 498976


First name(s) John Hiram
Last name Lissant
Baptism year 1843
Birth year 1843
Place Allahabad
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) John Hiram
Father's last name Lissant
Baptism date 15 Apr 1843
Birth date 23 Mar 1843
Archive reference N-1-64
Folio 493
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal

First name(s) Lucy
Last name Lissant
Baptism year 1845
Birth year 1845
Place Nasirabad
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) John
Father's last name Lissant
Baptism date 15 Sep 1845
Birth date 01 Aug 1845
Archive reference N-1-68
Folio 29
Page -
Catalogue descriptions Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal

First name(s) Harry Samuel
Last name Lissant
Baptism year 1848
Birth year 1848
Place Kussowlie
Presidency Bengal
Mother's first name(s) Mary
Mother's last name -
Father's first name(s) John Hiram
Father's last name Lissant
Baptism date 13 Jun 1848
Birth date 22 Jan 1848
Archive reference N-1-73
Folio 199

English born child :

Name: Clement George Lissant
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 22 Feb 1854
Father's name: John Hiram Lissant
Mother's name: Mary Lissant
Parish or Poor Law Union: Canonbury St Paul
Borough: Islington
Register Type: Parish Registers

Clement appears in India Records.

Mary died in 1858 of consumption, the burial register described her as the wife of John Hiram Lissant, merchant.:

First name(s) Mary
Last name Lissant
Birth year 1818
Death date 05 Apr 1858
Death year 1858
Age 40
Burial date 05 Apr 1858
Place Calcutta
Presidency Bengal
Archive Reference N-1-93
Folio -
Page 262
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948

When I was looking for Charles James Ogden Lissant's father, John Hiram Lissant, I found the trees on Ancestry had him born in 1809, and marrying in 1817....so I posted some alternative info to them, and two of them did respond and update accordingly. Would have been a very precocious 8 yr old! ( His age on death in Indai confirmed that 1809 was likely his birth year as well as his baptismal year).


England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906

Name: John Hiram Lissant
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 19 Nov 1809
Christening Place: Chatham, Kent, England
Father's name: Henry Lissant
Mother's name: Margaret

A Brother to John Hiram Lissant:

Name: Benjamin Olding Lissant
Birth Date: 29 Dec 1802
Birth Place: Chatham, Kent, England
Gender: Male
Event Type: Baptism
Father: Henry Dunn Lissant
Mother: Margaret
Baptism Date: 23 Mar 1803
Baptism Place: Chatham, Kent, England
Denomination: Independent
Piece Title: Piece 0680: Chatham, Clover Street, Ebenezer Chapel (Independent), 1774-1823

Benjamin Olding Lissant also turns up in India records.

Sister Sarah?

Name: Sarah Lissant
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 15 Dec 1811
Christening Place: Chatham, Kent, England
Father's name: Henry Lissant
Mother's name: Margaret
Didn't find a baptism, but wondered if this was another child of Henry Dunn Lissant:

Name: Henry Olding Lissant<<<<<<<<
Gender: Male
Marriage Date: 27 Nov 1826
Marriage Place: St. Bride Fleet Street, London, England
Spouse: Elizabeth Dudds
FHL Film Number: 568042
Reference ID: p 17

????

Name:
Margaret Lissunt
Gender:
Female
Christening Date:
26 Jul 1807
Christening Place:
Gillingham, Kent, England
Birth Date:
28 May 1807
Birthplace:
Gillingham, Kent, England
Father's Name:
Henry Lissunt
Mother's Name:
Margaret
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C02172-5 , System Origin: England-EASy , GS Film number: 1042490 , Reference ID: item 5

Name:
Harry Samuel Lissam
Gender:
Male
Christening Date:
07 Apr 1805
Christening Place:
Chatham, Kent, England
Father's Name:
Harry Lissam
Mother's Name:
Margaret
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C16606-8 , System Origin: England-EASy , GS Film number: 1469178 , Reference ID: item 8

Hmm, so where was Thyrza as you say. She certainly came back to England by 1906 to die in Croydon as I posted earlier.

At least I got the father right..... :-)

I'm pretty sure that's Charles J O's death in India I posted previously, so Winifred Kate was an orphan by the end of August 1911.

This is interesting

Winnifred Kate Lissant
2 Dec 1903
Charles James Ogden Lissant - Jeweller(journeyman)
Mary Lissant formerly Brown
M Lissant -mother, 70 Great Percy Street
Registered 30 Dec 1903

Begs the question of the whereabouts of Thyriza.Still in India?

I suspect you'll find virtually all of the Lissants are interconnected anyway - the family safc found in Deptford in 1911 for instance, certainly are - Harry S J Lissant is Harry Samuel John Lissant, whose father, Harry Samuel Lissant was a half brother to Charles James Ogden Lissant; Harry Samuel was a son of John Hiram Lissant's first marriage to Mary Green, Charles James Ogden was a child of the second marriage to Mary Ann 'Annie' Ogden.

Both marriages had other offspring; some descendants had made their way back to England by the 1911 census.

Charles James Ogden Lissant died in India in 1911:

First name(s) Charles James
Last name Lissant
Birth year 1867
Death date 09 Aug 1911
Death year 1911
Age 44
Burial date 11 Aug 1911
Place Calcutta
Presidency Bengal
Archive Reference N-1
Folio -
Page 95
Catalogue Description Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, : 1713-1948
Record set British India Office deaths & burials