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Hi, Gerry,

Only a very small amount of help on my part compared to all the other help you have received from the various posters, but I do have a vested interest in this thread :-)

Allan

Heh Allan.

You are right. It IS 24 Patchett Street. I tried various spellings as it is difficult to read, but obviously not that one! And would you believe it I have a printed copy of the 1851 Census page that Glitter referred to.

Shows how these Platts are messing with my head lol

Gerry :-)

Gerry, could that be Patchett Street?

Glitter's post of 23rd April 2015 16.22 near top of Page three had the following information:


1881 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
17, Patchett Street, Hulme, Chorlton, Lancashire, England

Georgina Wadsworth Head Widow Female 45 1836 Housekeeper Stapeley, Cheshire,
James Platt Son Married Male 24 1857 Scene Painter Manchester, Lancashire,
Alice Platt Daughter In Law Married Female 24 1857 Actor/ Ballet Dancer Congleton, Cheshire,
Teresa A Platt Grand Son Single Female 1 1880 - Manchester, Lancashire,
Mary Wakearan Sister Single Female 52 1829 Lace Transferrer Stapeley, Cheshire,


Patchett Street can be found on Google Maps. Post Code M12 4RY

Allan

James and Alice's first daughter Theresa Augusta was born 6/2/1880 at at 25 Portchatts (??) St, Hulme Manchester.

James was recorded as a "scenic artist" and Alice Mary registered the birth 15 March

Hi Joonie

This is the second time I have written this posting. Goodness knows what happened to the first one.

The Platt branch of this Tree has been nothing but problems with missing people and numerous inconsistencies and contradictions. Its only thanks to the immense help I have had from the people on this thread that I have made any progress.

The birth date for James is from the baptism record (see the address on previous posting to find it) and a corresponding entry on FreeBMD

Heh Gerry, not 'my' Clifford although I'm one of several who have adopted Allan's Clifford mystery over the years :-)

mostly it was the 'missing scenic artist' that caught my eye, and then the fact that he disappeared right around when Allan's Clifford emerged full blown from nowhere!

Clifford lived in Manchester once he appeared (but reported born in London)

We now seem have your James in Manchester in 1901 (with the possibility of workhouse entries shortly after that) but not after, with Clifford appearing in 1904

but the odds are enormous that this is a coincidence ... we have Jean in this very thread with yet another scenic artist with similar holes in his history!

maybe a group project at Family Tree DNA for "descendants of scenic artists who went missing" would be an idea :-D

James fudging his age as he (and so many people) did doesn't help anything, like looking for death records, unfortunately

just one question on the birthdate 11/2/1857, I had missed that in the thread, is that from a birth certificate or is it in the baptism record?

but you have certainly got a lot of progress in this thread so far!

Hi All

I see a lot has been going on in my absence. Well done Mavis for finding James Platt in 1901. I feel sure it is my James even if he is shown as single. That may well have been assumed by whoever completed the census.

As usual the dob is a bit out as James was born 11/2/1857 (baptised 22/3/1857). which was a year BEFORE James' parents (James and Georgiana) were married 6/4/1858.
Interestingly the baptism record says "Georgiana late Wakeman married at ???? 1856!!!!!!
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2960/40364_605905_0116-00098/2102144?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fgst%3d-6&ssrc=pt_t51751819_p26045511976&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

I am going mad! I have just noticed the marriage cert says James snr was a policeman but the baptism record has him down as a farmer

Joonie I think it may be helpful if you could list the similarities you think there are between James Platt and your Clifford. I had a look at your thread, all hundreds of pages (lol) last night and did not get the feeling they may be one of the same.

There is a couple of entries in the Manchester Workhouse registers that could fit- they give no information as to occupation which is annoying :)

First name(s) James
Last name Platt
Birth year 1854
Admission/Discharge year 1901-02
Admission 4th May 1901
Place Manchester
Register book year 1901
Locality of record Manchester New Bridge Street Workhouse
Records title Creed Register
Date range 1901 - 1902
Film M4 - 11 - 19

First name(s) James
Last name Platt
Birth year 1855
Admission/Discharge year 1902-03
Admission 28 March 1902
Place Manchester
Register book year 1902
Locality of record Manchester New Bridge Street Workhouse
Records title Creed Register
Date range 1902 - 1903

I think he's actually listed as the last occupant of 36 Byrom Street-

the next residence is 30 Lower Byrom Street, and the residence before is 5 St. John's Parade.

Yes indeed - Artist is the census category (that was done for Clifford Mortimer in the 1911 census where it says 'painter' too, that's why I put it in parentheses in that census above ... no hm, actually it's the other way around, his entry says Artist and the census person wrote Painter ...)

Excellent Mavis!!


... it just took me forever to find him at Ancy though thanks to its transcription

> Name: Jame Platt
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation to Head: Lodger
Gender: Male
> Birth Place: Mancr, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Manchester
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Manchester
Piece: 3746
Folio: 89
> Page Number: 25 (correct)

'Theatre Painter' (Artist), absolutely

and he is 'single'

(message edited to fix my confusion about the address, thanks for sorting me out Gritty :-) )


there is no death for him in Manchester reg dist unless his age got significantly adjusted

Deaths Mar 1904
PLATT James 58 Manchester 8d 175

so he could still have taken on a new identity :-)


edit - no actually this death could be a good match

Name: James Platt
Birth Date: abt 1853
Date of Registration: Dec 1929
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Manchester North
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 708

assuming of course that he stayed in Manchester ......

Ooh Mavis- Fab work- that looks good! Yes Theatre Painter- and then ArtS written over- which I think is just the category of occupation.

He is listed as single- but telling the truth isn't a strong point in this family!

could this be James 1901 ???

RG13/3746 f 89 page 175 - 176 ---- 36 Byrom St . Manchester


James Platt - S 47y 1854 Male Lodger Manchester, Lancashire Theatre Printer Art
this could read as Theatre painter Art S. very thick lines written over it -- could some one else have a look and give an opinion ?????

Mavis

Now, now, Jude! :-D :-D :-D

Like Joonie, I find this thread fascinating. I have only just had the thread drawn to my attention by JC so have only skimmed through it, but Gerry's estimation of James Platt's dob of 1860 +/- 10 years, fits in nicely with Clifford's supposed dob of 1860. Clifford died in 1930 and his age on his death certificate is shown as 70

Allan

omg Joonie....I remember Clifford (painfully) :-)

Jude

Hi Joonie, and Gritty again.

Sorry for not coming back to you sooner but we have been away again. Just so you know this happens quite often as we have a motorhome.

Okay, back to the important stuff.

Joonie, according to Alice's death cert i 1916 she was "of 25 Dante Rd Newington, wife of James Platt a scenic artist". In 1911, under the name of Alice Tyler, she was living at 23 Dante Rd. It may well have been the same address. The 1911 Census was actually completed and signed by Harold Bertie Connock also a music hall artist, and apparently family friend as he lived for with Alice Maud (Alice and James' daughter) and her husband at various London addresses.

I can find not a trace of James Platt after 1891, other than the mention of him on Alice's death cert. and marriage of his daughter Alice Maud. His occupation has always been scenic painter except for 1881 when he was supposedly a "car driver".

Neither can I find ANY of the family in 1901. We know the family were in Manchester in 1886 for the birth and baptism of Alice Maud but after that nothing until 1911.

Gritty, the witnesses were: 1858 Joseph Bailey and Mary Elizabeth Wakeman,
and 1873 William Wright and Mary Elizabeth Wakeman.

I have ordered the birth and death certs for Theresa Augusta to see if they can muddy the water even more!!

Gerry

Oh Joonie, I feel a headache coming on! :-D

I don't know if Gerry has James Platt in 1901 & 1911- we know he wasn't with Alice in 1911, but as he didn't appear to be officially married to her, he was free to marry someone else. I had a quick look and couldn't see an obvious entry for him, although there maybe some possibles living with other partners/ wives (but none that are scenic artists). Of course, there is a possibility that James became Clifford. However, proving anything with this family is a serious challenge and sadly I'm not sure we'll ever know the truth for James or Clifford.

These theatrical people didn't give much thought to their future generations!

I'd be interested in what is on Theresa Augusta's birth cert, and where she was after 1891- I presume she also took a stage name? Although I see a possible death for her in Brent, Greater London, I don't see her listed on any electoral register. I wonder if her death certificate will provide any clues?

Oh, and Gerry- the marriage of James Platt snr and Georgiana in 1858- you said one of the witnesses was Georgiana's sister, but who who was the other witness?

OK, time for a lie down in a dark room


:-D

I just want to butt in here to say what an interesting read and keep it in my threads to follow, and also to say ... anybody remember Clifford Mortimer? :-)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/mortimer%20%28clifford%29/thread/1127809

(You'll need a dozen more pages of posts to catch up to him!)

Clifford, the scenery painter, is still a mystery. He didn't exist before his 1904 marriage. Allan whose ancestor he is, is now trying the DNA route for clues, on my insistence, but no joy there so far that I've heard. Clifford is so like James, down to the locations, that I wondered whether we had found Clifford when I opened this thread!

Gerry you said James was shown as a scenic artist on the death cert of his wife Alice on 16/2/1916, where she is shown at the same address as in 1911 in the census Gritty posted on page 2:

1911: 25 Dante Road, Newington Butts SE
Alice Tyler Head 1865 46 Female Married 29 MUSIC HALL ARTIST KENTISH, Kent, England
May Tyler Daughter 1891 20 Female Single MUSIC HALL ARTIST Manchester, Chester, England SE
(Theresa Augusta the other child still living, but where?)

James is not in the household and Alice is shown as married ... do you know where James was? also where any of the family were in 1901? I'm not sure whether I'm asking the obvious unanswered questions or I've maybe missed something :-)

Gritty said on page 2 ...

'James is not present at his wife's death, nor is he the informant. He is also not a witness to his daughter's wedding and nor is he living at Chatteris Square or Dante Road.'

just for giggles, this is Clifford in 1911, the only sighting of him other than the 1904 marriage where he was recorded as 'Decorative Artist' and his children's births and then his death in 1930 where he was recorded as 'Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)'

Clifford Mortinver [Clifford Mortimer]
aged 50/1861 born London
Street address: 14 Greame Street Manchester
Registration district: Chorlton
Occupation: Artist (Painter)

Adelaide Mortinver [Adelaide Mortimer] (wife of Clifford)
aged 27/1884


on his 1904 marriage, Clifford's father was Joseph Mortimer, coach painter, who clearly never existed. ;)

so Clifford and James are sort of mirror image twins!

Joseph Platt, Farmer

Out of interest, who does James Platt list as his father on the marriage to Georgiana?

Well! I am totally confused. No change there then!

I agree with you Gritty that George, the farmer, seems the most likely bet for Georgiana's father. I have looked all over the place and I cannot find another credible candidate.

It doesn't help that Georgiana, like half the people in this Tree, seems incapable of keeping to one year of birth. In her marriage to Joseph Wadesworth in 1873 she was 35 (1838) AND she acquired the added name of Wood, but when she married James Platt in 1858 she was 27 (1831).

Her father is either a surgeon, registra or a farmer. James Platt goes from policeman to invoice clerk.

Something isn't right!

Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggg