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This is the older Bryant in 1861, unmarried but ties him in with Whitechapel...occupation cooper as he is when he moves to Bristol but here as head of household with housekeeper and her two young children... are they his also as she is unmarried?

Name: Bryant Louch
Age: 27
Estimated Birth Year: 1834
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Cassington, Oxfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Whitechapel
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mark
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image
Registration district: Whitechapel
Sub-registration district: Goodmans Fields
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 127
Piece: 272
Folio: 129
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Bryant Louch 27
Emma Lane 23
Florance Lane 1
Arthur Lane 3/12

oh he did marry her then

Name: Emma Lane
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1838
Age: 23
Spouse: Bryant Louch
Spouse Age: 27
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 16 Jun 1861
Parish: Goodman's Fields St Mark
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Henry Lane
Spouse Father: John Louch
Register Type: Parish Register

but he has not been wholly accurate about father's name? as in the 1851 he is with father also Bryant

EDIT possible death of Emma? Deaths Sep 1866 (>99%)
LOUCH Emma 29 Mile End 1c 658

Continuing thanks for all your efforts to untangle this mysterious bunch! Two Arthur's, who both have brushes with the law, marry two nellies.... I've also searched and searched for elizabeth with william Watkins and for a marriage between them and am dizzy with looking under all the name variants I can think of, but I can't find any trace of them together. I do feel positive about the death of elizabeth m. Watkins in Croydon though. I'm intrigued by the 'unmentionable' crime in 1891 ... Obviously deleted for a good reason, but frustrating not to have seen it. I've now found by googling that arthur junior was exempted from military service in 1915 on the grounds of hardship to his businesses and physical infirmity. He was named as arthur Bryant Louch of 108 high street, Harlesden, aged 29, a confectioner. Many thanks again for all your efforts ... Much appreciated

This is the Bryant Louch cooper at that same address 38 Hayward road in 1901

1901 England Census
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Name: Bryan Louch
Age: 67
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Cassington, Oxfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Bristol
Ecclesiastical parish: Barton Hill St Luke
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Bristol
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 40
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2392
Folio: 19
Page Number: 29
Household schedule number: 154
Household Members:
Name Age
Bryan Louch 67

and in 1891

Bryant Louch in the 1891 England Census

Name: Bryant Louch ( cooper, grocer and beer retailer)
Age: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen Louch
Gender: Male
Where born: Catgington, Oxfordshire, England
Civil Parish: St Philip and St Jacob
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Barton Regis
Sub registration district: St Philip
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 1984
Folio: 52
Page Number: 27
Household Members:
Name Age
Bryant Louch 57
Ellen Louch 45
Rosaline M Thick 12

Name: Bryant Louch
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relationship to Head: Head
Spouse: Ellen Louch
Gender: Male
Where born: Cassington, Oxfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Bruton
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Street address: Patwell St
Marital Status: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Master Cooper
Registration district: Wincanton
Sub registration district: Bruton
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2399
Folio: 31
Page Number: 10
Household Members:
Name Age
Bryant Louch 46
Ellen Louch 35
Arthur Louch 8 <<<<<<<<<<<<

and is this Bryant Louch death in Bristol related in any way or not :-S :-S :-S

Deaths Mar 1904 (>99%)
LOUCH Bryant 70 Bristol 6a 83

EDIT so this one is a cooper, BUT what is relevant is that he is listed on the probate at the same address as the Bryant Arthur Louch who dies 1938 ( husband of Nellie Kate also a cooper

Name: Bryant Arthur Louch
Street address: 38 Hayward road Barton hill
Occupation: Cooper
Publication Title: 1938 Kelly´s Directory of Bristol and Suburbs
City: Bristol
County: Gloucestershire
Country: England
Publication Year: 1938

I am thoroughly confused :-D :-S

so where is this one in 1911?

name: Bryant Arthur Walter Louch
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 13 May 1907
Baptism Date: 9 Jun 1907
Baptism Place: St Philip & Jacob, Bristol, England
Father: Bryant Arthur Louch
Mother: Nellie Kate
FHL Film Number: 1999937
Reference ID: p166 ln1327

and one for the son as witness ( and wife Nellie )

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19120109-name-387&div=t19120109-76#highlight

There is a case on the Old Bailey website,

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-265-18900303&div=t18900303-265#highlight

Largely for my own benefit, to get it straight in my head:

Arthur Bryant, who married Nellie Alice Burke, is Elizabeth's son - as per the marriage posted on page 1 (EDIT: also on page 2] - father Arthur Bryant Louch.
He's born London. Living in London 1891, and at school in Bristol in 1901.
1911 he marries Nellie Burke.
Has a son Percy (per Nellie Alice's probate, posted by RR.), and dies in 1961.

Bryant Arthur, born 1861 Whitechapel, marries Nellie Kate Cann.
We have his birth record; in 1871 census; in 1881 (a sailor), and then in 1911 with Nellie.
So we have to assume this is a completely different person from Arthur senior.

Arthur Bryant senior:
We have (presumably) his birth in Hambledon in 1860, in 1871 census, and then his brush with the law in 1890, and divorce in 1899.

But no sign of him later, and no sign of Elizabeth either - so no help to Rooter whatsoever!

Perhaps they both used different names after the lawsuit - apart from the divorce, when they would have had to use their real names.

Wasn't there a post on this thread suggesting that they might not be on the 1891 census because of an unmentionable crime? Now deleted? It showed links to newspaper articles.

[EDIT: we do have Elizabeth and son Arthur in 1891, posted on page 1 - just not after that.]

EDIT .probably not ) Is this the uncle Charles Webb? witness on Arthur B Louch's ( junior) marriage to Nellie Alice? I ask because I note he is a confectioner as is Arthur in the phone book entry

Name: Charles Lourie Webb
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Age: 40
Spouse: Emma Abigail Goodchild
Spouse Age: 27
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Aug 1887
Parish: St Michael and All Angels, Woolwich
Borough: Greenwich
Father Name: James Lourie Webb
Spouse Father: John Goodchild
Register Type: Parish Register

I've looked for Elizabeth (in 1901) with the co respondent in the divorce with no success...

where was Abigail Webb in 1901? I can't see her

sorry if it has been put before, probate for each Nellie

Name: Nelly Kate Louch (widow)
Probate Date: 5 Oct 1953
Death Date: 21 Sep 1953
Death Place: Bristol, England
Registry: Bristol

Name: Nellie Alice Louch
Probate Date: 23 Mar 1966
Death Date: 18 Dec 1965
Death Place: London, England
Registry: London, England ( probate to son Percy Arthur Louch newsagent)

Hi all, yes as ArgyllGran says it is confusing!

I was trying to work out ( but it got too late last night and I was going round in circles!) where these two were and who they married, but I got lost lol.

Births Sep 1860 (>99%)
LOUCH Arthur Bryant Hambledon 2a 102

Births Mar 1861
Louch Bryant Arthur Whitechapel 1c 405

This is Nellie Alice that married 1911 to Arthur Bryant Louch ( aged 24 shopkeeper...presumably the one who is a confectioner in the phone book and the electoral rolls.)

Name: Nellie Alice Burke
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 18 Jun 1891
Father's name: Samuel Burke
Mother's name: Eliza Burke
Parish or Poor Law Union: Woolwich St Mary Magdalene
Borough: Greenwich
Register Type: Parish Registers

Name: Nellie Burke
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1891
Age: 20
Spouse: Arthur Bryant Louch
Spouse Age: 24
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 6 Aug 1911
Parish: All Souls, Harlesden
Borough: Brent
Spouse Father: Arthur Bryant Louch
Register Type: Parish Register

Charles Webb was one of the witnesses...

RR was wondering where the 1907 and 1905 births she posted yesterday at 23:13 fits in.

Those will be the children of the Bryant Arthur and Nellie Kate whose 1904 marriage Andrew posted on page 1 (22 March, 22:55).

[EDIT: and I see RR has posted other records of Bryant and Nellie.]

Must admit I'm confused. There seems to be a Bryant Arthur married to a Nellie Kate, and an Arthur Bryant married to a Nellie Alice.

Is one Elizabeth's ex and one her son, or is one of them a completely different person?

In 1891, the son Arthur Bryant Louch was in Clifton Certified Industrial School for boys, Church park, Clifton Wood, Clifton, Bristol, Gloucestershire


It looks as though he was being trained to be a Tailor (from the image)



children who were sent to an industrial school were not necesarily young offenders but were deemed to be in danger of falling into crime because of their family's circumstances.



for further information on Industrial Schools, see

http://www.hiddenlives.org.uk/articles/raggedschool.html


Clifton Industrial School information ............

http://www.missing-ancestors.com/CLIFTON%20IND%20SCH%20BRISTOL%20INFO%20PAGE.htm

Bryant Arthur Louch in the England & Wales, National Probate Calendar (Index of Wills and Administrations), 1858-1966

Name: Bryant Arthur Louch
Probate Date: 22 Feb 1939
Death Date: 24 Nov 1938
Death Place: Bristol, England
Registry: Bristol

to Nellie Kate Louch

Address: 2 Granville rd N.12
Directory Title: London Surnames A - Z
Publication Year: 1919
Directory County: London
Page Number: 572

Arthur Bryant Louch on electoral rolls with Nellie Allice through 1920s

Not sure about this initials difficult to make out?


Name: Bri.A. Louch
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Devon
Country: England
Street address: "Impregnable"
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Cks Mate 2 Cl (A B)
Registration district: Stoke Damerel
Sub registration district: Morice
ED, institution, or vessel: Implacable
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2210
Folio: 23
Page Number: 2

Just putting these two together ( thought it might help, me at least!)

Births Sep 1860 (>99%)

LOUCH Arthur Bryant Hambledon 2a 102

Births Mar 1861
Louch Bryant Arthur Whitechapel 1c 405

I'm just wondering ?don't want to muddy the waters lol

Name: Arthur Briant Louch
Gender: Male
Baptism Date: 2 Sep 1860
Baptism Place: Wonersh,Surrey,England
Father: George Louch
Mother: Elizabeth
FHL Film Number: 1042347

1871 for Bryant A Louch but not sure it fits in this puzzle

Name: Bryant A Lunow
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Son (Child)
Father's name: Bryant Lunow
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Wincanton
Town: Wincanton
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Wincanton
Sub-registration district: Wincanton
ED, institution, or vessel: 10f
Household schedule number: 173
Piece: 2426
Folio: 133
Page Number: 33
Household Members:
Name Age
Bryant Lunow 37 born Cassington, Oxfordshire, occupation of cooper
Bryant A Lunow 10


Just for info
Name: Bryant Louch
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Age: 27
Spouse: Emma Lane
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 16 Jun 1861
Parish: Goodman's Fields St Mark
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Louch
Spouse Father: George Henry Lane
Register Type: Parish Register

They are living together on 1861 census

He is a servant in 1851 and living with his parents of John and Phoebe in Wallington in 1841