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Not that one ! - Am I totally confused or have we been looking for Thomas's second 'wife' - Mary Ellen 'something' (who you had thought was Paton) ?? :-S

I am suggesting that she was the one I suggested earlier who had been married to Henry McElroy ???

Marriages Dec 1883
Butler Mary Ellen Chorlton 8c 1185
MCELROY Henry Chorlton 8c 1185

Dea x

Dea - The Mary that married Thomas senior (b1866) was Mary Connell b 1869. They married in Jan 1887.

Thank you

Well, I am still inclined towards Mary Ellen McElroy being the one but haven't found proof yet :-(

She was born in Hulme just as the one we are looking for was ! - Name at the time was Mary Ellen Butler!

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1863
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
BUTLER Mary Ellen Hulme Archives+, Manchester Central Library HUL/113/19

I will keep looking.

Dea x

Ho Hum. Thanks everybody for your time and assistance and contributions.

I don't want to confuse things but have you considered this family in the 1911 census as this Thomas Henry has sisters called Margaret and Elizabeth although they are younger than him rather than older:-

First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Birth place Occupation

Mary Ellen Morgan Head Widow Female 40 1871 Lancs St Helens
Thomas Henry Morgan Son Single Male 19 1892 Lancs St Helens Glass Labourer<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Margaret Ann Morgan Daughter Single Female 18 1893 Lancs St Helens
Ernest Edward Morgan Son Single Male 16 1895 Lancs St Helens Glass Bottle Labourer
Sophia Morgan Daughter - Female 14 1897 Lancs St Helens
Elizabeth Morgan Daughter - Female 11 1900 Lancs St Helens
Annie Morgan Daughter - Female 7 1904 Lancs St Helens

Address: 17 Farnworth St St Helens, St Helens, Lancashire

EDIT - Perhaps not as this one is in the 1901 census with a father called Frank.

Kath. x

To recap..
I know that Thomas H Morgan is from Salford and died when he was 54 years old in 1946 - so born 1892.
I've found a birth for Thomas H Morgan in 1892.
Birth cert states his father was Thomas and mother was Mary (nee Connell) living in Pendleton.
I know Thomas H had 2 elder sisters Margaret and Elizabeth.
The 1891 census shows:
Thomas Morgan Head Married 25 1866 General Labourer Manchester, Lancashire, England
Mary Morgan Wife Married 22 1869 - Salford, Lancashire, England
Margaret Morgan Daughter - 3 1888 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England
Sarah E Morgan Daughter - 1 1890 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England
and this info seems to match up pretty well. I therefore assume is correct.

Searching for these details in 1901 doesn't provide a clean match.

I therefore search for Thomas Morgan in 1911 (the one born in 1892) and it provides:

2 possibles - 1 as a lodger in Wigan and 1 living in Pendleton.
I've plumped for the one in Pendleton because there is a father called Thomas Morgan of about the same age. I'm also "aware" that there was an "uncle Martin" discussed in family circles. So this census record shows:

Thomas Morgan Head Married 44 1867 Pendleton Lanc Labourer
Mary Ellen Morgan Wife Married 44 1867 Hulme Lanc -
Thomas Morgan Son Single 19 1892 Pendleton Lanc Street Hawker
May Morgan Daughter - 14 1897 Pendleton Lanc School
Florie Morgan Daughter - 13 1898 Pendleton Lanc School
Rosie Morgan Daughter 7 1904 Pendleton Lanc School
Martin Morgan Son - 4 1907 Pendleton Lanc

The problem for me was that the mother/wife is Mary Ellen. This didn't match my marriage for Thomas senior. I wanted to find 1901 to work out why. I can't. I have however found a death of Mary Morgan in 1894. Again I've now assumed that this is the mother of Margaret/Sarah/Thomas. Suggesting that Mary Ellen is a second wife of Thomas....with extra children.....one being a ("uncle"Martin?).

I can't confirm the two groups on the census are joined...it is just my calculated assumptions. If I have made a mistake I'm happy to be corrected.



Ok. I can now discount the Mary Ellen Paton marriage to Thomas Morgan in 1896. The cert states he is a bachelor and a joiner.
So I'm at a loss as to where any of them are in 1901 or 1911........ :-(

There is NO evidence of his re-marrying

Why not purchase Martin's birth cert?

That will give you some of the answers.......not least the surname for Mary Ellen

Choccy, thanks.
The age of the Thomas in that census is marked as 37 birth year as 1864.
"my" Thomas is b 1862. So is near. Shows as having a daughter Sarah E (which also makes sense) at around 12 ("my" Sarah born in 1890).
BUT I believe that he would have re-married and no longer be marked as Widower. Would also mean I'm looking for a single boy Thomas and Margaret.

Thanks, Yvonne.........we noticed. I raised the query

Looks promising, Choccy.

Posting FMP version for fuller detail, which may throw a spanner!

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
47, Rossall Street, Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire, England

First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
James Patrick Ryan Head Married Male 44 1857 Foreman Pipelayer Ireland Transcription
Delia Ryan Wife Married Female 50 1851 - Ireland Transcription
Thomas Henry Morgan Lodger Widower Male 37 1864 Night Soil Labourer Wales Transcription
Sarah Elizabeth Morgan Lodger Single Female 12 1889 - Lancashire, England Transcription

hi
says there was a correction on death not 1891 but 1894

??

1901 England Census


Name:Sarah Elizabeth Morgan

Age:12

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1889

Relation to Head:Lodger

Gender:Female
Birth Place:Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Pendleton
Ecclesiastical parish:St Thomas
County/Island:Lancashire
Country:England

Street address: 47 ROSSALL STREET


Registration district:Salford

Sub-registration district:Pendleton

ED, institution, or vessel: 10


James Patrick Ryan 44

Delia Ryan 50

Thomas Henry Morgan 37

Sarah Elizabeth Morgan 12

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 3713; Folio: 52; Page: 6.

There is a possible death for Henry in 1899:

Deaths Jun 1899 (>99%)
McElroy Henry 37 Salford 8d 83

I wonder if it was the mother of the girls in 1901 who was living with Thomas Morgan in the 1911 census?

Kath. x

The children Dea posted in the 1901 had a mother, Mary E:


Name:Mary E McElroy
Age:27
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1864
Relation:Wife
Spouse's Name:Henry McElroy
Gender:Female
Where born:Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish:Pendleton
Ecclesiastical parish:St Thomas

Henry McElroy 29
Mary E McElroy 27
Mary E McElroy 7
Isabella McElroy 5
Sarah McElroy 3
Agnes McElroy 1

I don't think Dea is saying that no. 15 Rossall Street became number 2. Just that people often moved around houses in the same street and it seems to be a coincidence that there is a Mary E. with a Florence and a May all living together in the same street as the family in 1911.

Trouble is that the Mary E. in 1901 is only 17 years old and the Mary Ellen in 1911 is 44????

Kath. x

Dee,

I believe that I have come across them in a search I did. The names
Bella, Henry,John do not fit with any of my family. (Now they may be linked to the 2 deaths that are recorded on the 1911 census from Mary Ellen....?

How did you know that number 15 Rossall St. became No 2?

Thanks.

Kath - that is the marriage that I have recorded against Thomas H Morgan. Mary Connell. 22nd Jan 1887. He is 20 and she is 18.

But I can't find the connection in 1901 to confirm. Something has happened to the family around that time (whether Thomas then married Mary Ellen and acquired additional children to the 3 I believe this first marriage generated - i.e Margaret, Sarah and Thomas, or I have got 2 families which are not related.)
Thanks

Now - this may well be a 'red herring' and I am totally confused by it but I have to go off line soon so I am posting it for yoyur opinion:

Remember in 1911 Thomas and Mary Ellen + family were at 15 Rossall St. - well this is No 2 in 1901.

I was looking to see if I could find a Florrie and May together which would fit with those on 1911 which 'may' have arrived into the family as children of Mary Ellen with a different name?

Strangely, I came across this and can't help but wonder if there is some connection?



1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
2, Rossall Street, Pendleton, Salford, Lancashire, England

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Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Mary E McElroy Daughter Single Female 17 1884 Polish Winder In Mill Pendleton, Lancashire, England

Bella McElroy Daughter Single Female 15 1886 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England

Henry McElroy Son - Male 6 1895 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England

**May McElroy Daughter - Female 4 1897 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England

**Florence McElroy Daughter - Female 3 1898 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England

John McElroy Son - Male 0 1901 - Pendleton, Lancashire, England


What do you think?

I will be back later.

Dea x

The marriage of Thomas Henry Morgan's parents:-

First name(s) MARY
Last name CONNELL
Marriage quarter 1
Marriage year 1887
Registration month -
MarriageFinder™ MARY CONNELL married one of these people
**THOMAS MORGAN**, HENRY MAYO
Spouse's last name -
District SALFORD
District number -
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 8D
Page 136

Kath. x