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Rose - i wrote this- an entry in 1911 in grimsby for a florrie whiteley who is 19 and is a servant to an older lady in a street in grimsby a street away from where she had my grandfather.

and you said - The one that was a street away in 1911 was from Manchester. She is listed with John and Mary in 1901.

can i ask how you know that? how do you link her with john and mary in 1901?

i know i said i was thinking the george and fanny route was the way to go because fanny was born in lincolshire- which would explain a move back- however we can find a first wife for him and florences Mum which makes me doubtful. i want to look at that mary and john which SylviainCanada first posted- their daughter has the right birth year etc. ive started to check maybe if mary died etc as the sarah and george pairing their daughters birth year is a year out from all the certs i have.

thanks very much

A theory!!

If the George who married Fanny in 1901 was the father of Florence May and a widower he may well have been "married" (no marriage recorded) to Sarah ? (NOT SARAH PAYNE, she married William Barlow) and the death of the Sarah Whiteley in 1901 (March Q) could have been her which would mean that George had young Florence to look after and so married Fanny the same Q of 1901.

ChristinaS thanks for finding those whitely children! so far i have no full siblings for FMW so its good to find some half siblings- even if they didn't survive!

Dea you might have something in that 1911 census with a george as the head- remember there was that entry for fanny and her son as a visitor and George wasn't on that one. id never found one with just george for 1911- i guess him with all those labourers and being a farm worker it looks like you found him?

thats good to know about naming at birth registration rose thanks!

to go back to chris post at 16:50- that sarah whitely death would have been such a find.. had Dea not found that the sarah payne i believed george had married, (from the baptism record where i had originally thought FMW's parents were sarah and george) but Dea said that sarah payne married william Barlow from the record which brought up the two possibilities in the earlier post the other being a martha!? so now I'm not even sure who his original wife was.

I'm quite convinced now that the George and fanny are the right people and appreciate all the additional children people are finding for them!! can't believe how nice everyone is to help me :-D i just need to find georges original wife (aka FMW Mum!) someone mentioned a lead above ill have to review...

rootgatherer- thanks if I'm going with the george and fanny combo- they married in 1901- on that cert online georges father is named henry. and he was a farmer. I'm going to keep looking in searches for georges birth.

A tree on Ancestry has him married to Edith Annie Barnett and his father as Johnson. But this looks like the marriage he refers to in 1901 when he describes himself as married.


Name: George Whiteley
Birth Year: abt 1862
Age: 33
Marriage or Bann Date: 9 Apr 1895
Parish: Holbeck, St John and St Barnabas
Father's Name: Johnson Whiteley
Spouse's Name: Annie Harris
Spouse's Father's Name: Joseph Harris

Following the George Dea has found

1901

Name: George Whitley
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1864
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Crowle, Lincolnshire, England
Civil Parish: Armley
Ecclesiastical parish: St Bartholomew
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image
Registration district: Bramley
Sub-registration district: Wortley
ED, institution, or vessel: 30
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4211
Folio: 151
Page Number: 41
Household schedule number: 287
Household Members:
Name Age
George Whitley 37 Married, Gas Stoker
Edith A Whitley Barnett 1 Daughter
Annie Barnett 26 Servant, Housekeeper



1881


Name: George Whiteley
Age: 19
Estimated birth year: abt 1862
Relationship to Head: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Crowle, Lincoln, England
Civil Parish: Wortley in Bramley
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address: 33 Warder Street
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Iron Moulder
Registration district: Bramley
Sub-registration district: Wortley
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 4505
Folio: 50
Page Number: 32
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann Harrison 32
George Whiteley 19
Benjamin Wright 36


Not seeing him in 1891 yet.

At that time, if a married woman had a baby, it was assumed by the registrar that the father was her husband ................... even if the husband had been dead for 10 years (as I once found out for someone!)

That is, unless the woman herself said the baby's father was not her husband .............. and then, the baby's father had to be present at the registration (or send a letter) to acknowledge parentage.




But also, don't forget that no surname is on a birth certificate from that era for the baby. There is a surname for the mother (usually her maiden name) and one for the father ................. and the baby is then assumed to have the father's surname.

I don't know why but I keep looking at this one:

1911 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription
North Street Crowle, Crowle, Yorkshire, England
Print household transcription
Household Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship to household head Marital condition Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
George Whiteley Head Married Male 48 1863 Labourer Farm Crowle Lincs
Annie Barnett Boarder Single Female 34 1877 - Winterley Cheshire
Edith Annie Barnett Boarder - Female 11 1900 School Crowle Lincs
George Johnson Barnett Boarder - Male 9 1902 School Armley Leeds Yorks
Gertrude Barnett Boarder - Female 7 1904 School Crowle Lincs
Beatrice Barnett Boarder - Female 4 1907 - Crowle Lincs
Print individual transcription View image
Individual transcription
First name(s) George
Last name Whiteley
Relationship to household head Head
Marital condition Married
Gender Male
Age 48
Birth year 1863
Occupation Labourer Farm
Birth place Crowle Lincs
Address North Street Crowle
Parish Crowle
Registration district Thorne
County Yorkshire, Yorkshire (West Riding)
Country England
Subdistrict Crowle
Enumeration district 3
Census reference RG14
Census reference RG14PN28264 RG78PN1615 RD513 SD3 ED3 SN297
Piece number 28264
Record set 1911 Census for England & Wales
Category Census, land & surveys
Record collection Census
Collections from Great Britain

Haven't got time to chase it around just now but will be back later.

Can anyone eliminate it in the meanwhile?

Dea x

EDIT:

Forget this one, I think, as I have found George and Annie on 1901 and it still says he was born in Lincolnshire. :-(

Dea x

Your grandfather would have been given the surname Armin as that was Florence's surname at the time.

Perhaps she married Walter once the war had finished or even after he divorced? It's possible he was married before to Mary Ann.

Rose

The 1911 census shows that Fanny and George had another two children, who died. Unfortunately, not an unusual event at that time.

They may be two of the following:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: Tom Whitley
BIRTH: abt 1909
DEATH: Jan 1909 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: Olive Leonorn Whiteley
BIRTH: abt 1906
DEATH: Jul 1906 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: Sarah Ann Whitley
BIRTH: abt 1902
DEATH: Jan 1902 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire

England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
DEATH, BURIAL, CEMETERY & OBITUARIESView Image
NAME: John W Whitley
BIRTH: abt 1910
DEATH: Jul 1910 - Grimsby, Lincolnshire


You're right - there's nothing unusual about someone's age being out by one year.

Marriage for George and Martha (taken from Lancashire bmd)

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1889
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference

WHITELEY George SIMPSON Martha Bury, St.Thomas Bury CE10/1/373

I wonder, could this be Sarah's death???

Name: Sarah Whiteley
Event Type: Death
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year: 1901
Registration District: Salford
County: Lancashire
Event Place: Salford, Lancashire, England
Age (available after 1866): 36
Birth Year (Estimated): 1865
Volume: 8D
Page: 78
Line Number: 294

Dea - does that therefore mean
where did choccy find this?

urname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1889 (>99%)
Barlow William Bury 8c 630
PAYNE Sarah Ann Bury 8c 630
SIMPSON Martha Bury 8c 630
Whiteley George Bury 8c 630

if sarah married william barlow- that george married martha simpson??????????????

Christina- you're good.. i hadn't noticed before that rultland crosses hildyard- thats way too much of a coincidence- that she was visiting someone that close to FMW!

choccy- very good.. i didn't ever see the constance amelia entry- where'd you find that?

Christina- would it be feasible that the marriage cert and death cert are incorrect isn't there usually some leeway of a year or two?

Hi everyone and thanks for all your help so far- can't believe how quickly you all replied!! I was in work and desperate to answer some of the questions flying back..

sylviaincanadas first post- I don't believe I've seen that entry before but its weird that a few of the entries i have seen state the birthday as 30 april .. i don't know if its just me getting obsessed or if someone else in the records mixed up a load of florence mays too!! just to keep me on my toes!

I also went right through the entry with George and Fanny- i believe george is listed as a widower when he married fanny and it was just before the census which means she can't be FMWs Mum but may have married her Dad.- and i concocted all kinds of theories that FMWs Mum had died when she was young and her father married fanny who is originally from lincolshire which would explain the move- and they went on to have a boy i believe however there is no death of a sarah whiteley (or any female whiteley) if that second scenario (the george and sarah one) were true. in fact theres no marriage or death for a george whitely (whatever spelling). presuming in those days a couple married a few years before their first child there are no marriages around 1890-1893 for george. there are no deaths of a george whitely between FMW birth in 1893 and marriage in 1918 (the wedding cert i have shows that her father was deceased by this time)

I actually have the birth cert for the one you listed - the john and mary but discarded it. john was a horse keeper!? not sure...

Rose- thanks so much- i think i will have to get the first marriage cert eventually, my grandfather was her second child he to add to the confusion was given her first husbands surname for some reason though he can't possibly be his (he died in 1915 and my Gf was born in 1918.. he is walter lampey armin as you later found!!

rose - what did you mean by this 'The one that was a street away in 1911 was from Manchester. She is listed with John and Mary in 1901'? how did you know she belonged to john and mary?

Chris Ho- thanks for the info on william Armin

Jacqueline- which site do you use - i noticed it has scans available?

Jacqueline and Rose- that entry for william C- appears to be a child they had after my Gf who died before y great aunty Dorothy.

Chris- thanks so much for some reason i wrote 1891 on my fam tree... but Dea... oh no you just put an end to that theory ... arrgh so now i don't even know who he married pre FMWs birth

christinaS- I'm starting to think you're all correct- the George and Fannie option is looking more likely- shame i deleted all my research from my tree when someone i paid told me it wasn't her... though i guess Fannie would be a step Mum and im still no further forward with FMW real mum and lineage. I have previously had G friend whitely in my tree.. and hoped he'd be easier to find but that unusual middle name doesn't feature again. was it usual not to marry in those days?

Choccy- yes thats the wife and son i thought George may have gone on to have- had all of that in my tree and then deleted it.. typical isn't it

64, Rutland Street (1911 above) touches onto Hildyard Street, where Florence is in 1911. So they definitely seem to be the correct family.

Only problem is that this Florence was born in 1892 but the poster's Florence was born in 1893.