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The certificate states that she was born on 21st April 1873.
although her actual birthday was as far I know on the 5th May 1873
and was named as Mary Ann McKay, father Michael McKay ( Soldier )
she was born in Endell St Hospital. St Giles.
So something dosen't seem right here.

Im impressed you found John Messenger on 1871 & 1891 census I coulden't find any trace of him. only on the 1881..
I will be away now till Sunday, but hopefully will catch up with you then, so pleased you have helped, fill in a few gaps.. Jean

Jean

Ann Messenger on 1881 census was born in 1875 in WARRINGTON......NOT in 1873 in a London district

Get the CORRECT cert, and find out Margaret's maiden name, which is what this thread was about in the first place

Jean, when you do get back - just to make sure we are on track, was your grandmother Annie McCauley, formerly Nicholson, nee Messenger?

You made reference in an earlier post to John perhaps marrying in America

Didn't you SEE the marriage for him in 1864 - posted for you on this thread?

Please do read carefully ALL of the info posted on here................

This is probably John's first wife before their marriage

1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

First Name Last Name Relationship Condition Gender Age Year Of Birth Occupation Birth Place
GEORGE RITSON HEAD MARRIED Male 66 1795 TOP LABOURER AT A COAL MINER LOW MOOR, LANCASHIRE Image Transcription
MARY RITSON WIFE MARRIED Female 53 1808 TOP LABOURER WIFE MARYPORT, CUMBERLAND Image Transcription
RICHARD RITSON SON UNMARRIED Male 21 1840 COAL MINER BROUGHTON, CUMBERLAND Image Transcription
MARY JAS RITSON DAUGHTER - Female 15 1846 SCHOLAR BROUGHTON, CUMBERLAND Image Transcription
JOHN JACKSON SON IN LAW MARRIED Male 26 1835 STONE MASON LONG LANE, CUMBERLAND Image Transcription
ELENOR JACKSON WIFE MARRIED Female 18 1843 STONE MASONS WIFE BROUGHTON, CUMBERLAND Image Transcription
GEORGE JACKSON SON - Male 1 1860 - BROUGHTON, CUMBERLAND

Reggie, to be fair - I posted that 1864 marriage AFTER Jean queried the possibility of him marrying in the US.

We have thrown a lot of information at Jean, which may take some digesting.

I posted the 1864 marriage on page one of this thread..................

If Jean gets the correct birth cert for her grandmother................she'll have the info she wants

So you did! My apologies. My second sentence still stands.

1901 England, Wales & Scotland Census Transcription

First Name Last Name Relationship Condition Gender Age Year Of Birth Occupation Birth Place
JOHN NICHOLSON HEAD MARRIED Male 30 1871 SLATER WARRINGTON, LANCASHIRE Image Transcription
ANNIE NICHOLSON WIFE MARRIED Female 25 1876 - WARRINGTON, LANCASHIRE Image Transcription
JOHN NICHOLSON SON SINGLE Male 8 1893 - WARRINGTON, LANCASHIRE Image Transcription
ANNIE NICHOLSON DAUGHTER SINGLE Female 3 1898 - WARRINGTON, LANCASHIRE Image Transcription



Marriages Mar 1910 (>99%)

McCAULEY James Warrington 8c 267
Nicholson Annie Warrington 8c 267


First name(s) ANNE
Last name MCCAULEY
Gender Female
Birth day -
Birth month -
Birth year 1876
Age 92
Death quarter 1
Death year 1968
District WARRINGTON
District number -
County Lancashire
Country England
Volume 10F
Page 836

I'm at a loss to understand why the 1873 birth in London of a Mary Mckay was ever thought to have any relevance...............

I must admit that's had me perplexed. Perhaps when Jean comes back she can clarify.

MarieCeleste. Grandma's name

Ann Messenger she then became Mrs Ann Nicholson after that she was Mrs Ann McCauley.

Jean.

Jean

Have you taken on board that you need to get Ann's birth cert?

Nothing else will give you what you asked for!!

Jean, I'm not sure how you came to get the 1873 birth certificate which definitely seems to be the wrong one.

It's quite simple to order the correct one (details of which have previously been provided) from GRO http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

It will cost £9.25 and will answer the question as to Margaret Messenger's maiden name.

If you want any guidance as to placing an order for the correct certificate then please just say.

Jean

I'm sorry, but there is little point in asking for help if you don't take notice of ALL of the info......and the ADVICE.

MarieCeleste & Reggie, I did post 0n the 19th to you both, I HAVE ordered the certificate (Should be here this week ) And I have already, said that I arrived at the 1873 birth year, by deducting her age on the marraige certificate. that is were I made the mistake. sorry to have put you to all this trouble. Thanks once again.

Jean

Maybe you diden;t receive that message, but I did mention that she had given a false age at her marriage.

Jean, when you get the birth certificate, please come back to the thread if you need further assistance. I guess too we would be interested to know what maiden surname is given on it for Margaret.

Good luck with your research.

Sorry Jean - as you can see from the chain of posts above there is no message on the 19th to the effect that you were ordering the 1875 certificate.

Do let us know what it says when you get it as we're looking forward to getting to the bottom of this mystery!

To Dea MarieCeleste & others who have helped me. I have now received the correct certificate, My grandmother was names as Ann Messenger, her mother is Margaret Messenger Late Edmonds formerly Reid. I dont know where the McKay has come into all this except for her tattoo. but thank you once again for your assistance in this matter.

Regards Jean

Jean - I posted some information on 13 May which might help tie this together.

On page 2 my post timed at 09:21 gives the marriage of James Edmonds in London with his father's name as James Edmonds. The address on that marriage proves him to be the James Edmunds McKay that Dea posted the 1911 census for at 09:03 on 12 May. ADDED: By way of baby Stanley McKay Edmonds.

On page 3 at 16:19 I posted the birth of James McKay, the father's name is James McKay and the mother's name is Margaret REID.

Also on page 3, Rootgatherer posted the 1871 census showing Margaret McKay with her son James.

I would say that Margaret Reid either married someone who was ambiguous about his surname, either using Edmunds or McKay, or she had a child to a man of one surname before marrying the other.