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Well, I followed the advice and purchased a copy of the marriage record for Joseph William Ball and Lucy Jones. This has obviously led me to their fathers' names, Jesse Ball and Caleb Jones.

I decided to look further into Jesse Ball, to try and find Josephs mother and siblings if nothing else.

What I have found is a record for Jesse being born in belper in 1951, though the 1881 census has him born in 1846. On the 1881 census he is living on primrose hill in blackwell (where joseph william also lives) and widowed. Now trying to find info on Josephs mother is nigh on impossible. I have paid to view some records and I can't find a name anywhere. Other research on freeBMD has her listed as Elizabeth Reek or Hannah Hopkinson.

After further research I think Elizabeth Reek was Jesse's wife for a short period of five years, as then she died in 1979 (aged 32). There is a record of their marriage in mansfield in 1874.

But Joseph was born in 1884 and since there are no female names knocking about, am I to assume he was illegitimate?

I feel like I'm down the rabbit hole and getting nowhere fast.

I would appreciate it if anyonoe could shed light on the matter. i am interested in finding out more about the Ball side of my family.

And also, when Lucy Ball nee Jones was institutionalised it's like she dropped off the face of the planet?! I can't find anything for her after 1918.

Thank you.

Now I'm finding a possible second wife, Rebecca Severn or Mary Ann Kerry...

from ancestry


England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915 about Jesse Ball
Name: Jesse Ball
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1851
Registration District: Belper
Inferred County: Derbyshire
Volume: 19
Page: 449

According to the 1881 Census on ancestry .................... Jesse Ball born ca 1851, Belper is living with his fathe, and is unmarried


1881 Census

Name: Jesse Ball
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: John Ball
Gender: Male
Where born: Belper, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Belper
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address: Chapel Street

Occupation: Fitter Derby Station Midland

Registration District: Belper
Sub-registration District: Belper

John Ball 66 b. ca 1815, Belper, Widower, Cabinet Maker
Esther Ball 42 b.ca 1839, Belper, Housekeeper
Jesse Ball 29 Unmarried, Son, Fitter, Derby Station Midland
Agnes Ball 17 b.ca 1864, Belper, Granddaughter, Embroiderer
George Stafford 18 Lodger
Rebecca Aldred 64 Lodger



so the one born in 1851 might not be yours .......... you do say that the one you found was born ca 1846.


BUT, you do need to find Joseph with his family, not just make assumptions.

1901 Census

Name: Joseph W Ball
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Jesse Ball
Mother's Name: Mary A Ball
Gender: Male
Where born: Blackwell, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Blackwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Werburgh
Town: Blackwell
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Mansfield
Sub-registration District: Blackwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 121
Piece: 3135
Folio: 113
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Jesse Ball 54
Mary A Ball 41
Joseph W Ball 16
Thomas Ball 14
John Ball 10
Mabel Ball 4
Elizabeth Ball 1


1911 - against Mary's name it says married 30 years 10 children born 7 living and 3 had died.

Name: Jesse Ball
Age in 1911: 65
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relation to Head: Head
Gender: Male
Birth Place: Pinxton, Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Blackwell
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Street Address: 135 Blackwell Primrose Hill
Marital Status: Married
Occupation: Colliery Surface - Banksman
Registration District: Mansfield
Registration District Number: 428
Sub-registration District: Blackwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Piece: 20304
Household Members:
Name Age
Jesse Ball 65
Mary Ann Ball 50
Thomas Ball 24
John Ball 20
Elizabeth Ball 11
Emily Ball 8


Jesse is a widower in 1881

Name: Jesse Ball
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1846
Relationship to Head: Boarder (Lodger) (Boarder)
Gender: Male
Where born: Pinxton, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Blackwell
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address: 212 Primrose Hill
Marital Status: Widow
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: Banksman (At Pit)

Registration District: Mansfield
Sub-registration District: Blackwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3313
Folio: 66
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
William Kerry 46
Eliza Kerry 45
Mary Ann Kerry 20
John Simpson Kerry
Jesse Ball 35



1861

????

Name: Jesse Ball
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Mary Ball
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Pinxton, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Pinxton
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View Image

Registration District: Mansfield
Sub-registration District: Warsop
ED, institution, or vessel: 4a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 24
Piece: 2123
Folio: 321
Page Number: 6
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Ball 42, Widow, formerly Collier's wife
John Ball 20
Samuel Ball 16
Elizabeth Ball 14
Thomas Ball 11
Ann Ball 8
Jesse Ball 2

from ancestry ........

This Joseph W Ball was born ca 1885 in Blackwell, and lives with a father Jesse in Blackwell.


1901 Census

Name: Joseph W Ball
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Jesse Ball
Mother's Name: Mary A Ball
Gender: Male
Where born: Blackwell, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Blackwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St Werburgh
Town: Blackwell
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Registration District: Mansfield
Sub-registration District: Blackwell

Jesse Ball 54 b.ca 1847, Puriton, Derbyshire, Coal Miner Waller (???)
Mary A Ball 41 b.ca 1860, Tupton, Derbyshire
Joseph W Ball 16 Colliery Horse Driver
Thomas Ball 14 b.ca 1887, Blackwell, Colliery Horse Driver
John Ball 10 b.ca 1891, Blackwell
Mabel Ball 4 b.ca 1897, Blackwell
Elizabeth Ball 1 b.ca 190o, Blackwell

Address:- 212 Primrose Hill

Joseph is not with the family in 1891

1891 Census

Name: Jesse Ball
Age: 43
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A Ball
Gender: Male
Where born: Pinxton, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Blackwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Blackwell
Town: Tibshelf
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Registration District: Mansfield
Sub-registration District: Blackwell

Jesse Ball 43 Coal Miner
Mary A Ball 30
Thomas Ball 4
John Ball 11/12
Thomas Cauterill 40 Lodger
Elizabeth Cauterill 36 Lodger
George W Cauterill 9 Lodger
Eliza Cauterill 2 Lodger
Eliza Cauterill 77 Lodger
John Ransford 75 Lodger

Address:- 212 Primrose Hill

Just to rule this census entry out of contention .....

This Joseph is NOT Joseph William!

1891 Census

Name: Joseph Ball
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Grandson
Gender: Male
Where born: Barlborough, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Clowne
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Clowne
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Registration District: Worksop
Sub-registration District: Carburton

John Hutchinson 87
John Ball 33 grandson-in-law
Mary J Ball 32 granddaughter
George H Ball 9 great grandson
Joseph Ball 7 great grandson
Lucy Ball 5 great grandsdaughter
Elizabeth A Ball 3 great granddaughter
Alfred Ball 1 great grandson

????

Births Mar 1848 Ball Jesse Chesterfield 19 433

Marriages Jun 1874
Ball Jesse Mansfield 7b 126
Hopkinson Hannah Elizabeth Mansfield 7b 126
REEK Elizabeth Mansfield 7b 126
WHITEHEAD George Mansfield 7b 126


George Whitehead is on the 1881 census with wife Hannah E so it looks like Jesse Ball married Elizabeth Reek



Marriages Jun 1881
BALL Jesse Mansfield 7b 98 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<,<<
JONES Enoch Mansfield 7b 98
KERRY Mary Ann A Mansfield 7b 98 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
SEVERN Rebecca Mansfield 7b 98

a tree on ancestry has the following.

YOU have to find the documentation to prove this information!

The first step would be buying Joseph William's birth certificate.


Jesse Ball
Birth 14 AUG 1848 in Pinxton, Derbyshire, England
Death 24 JAN 1923 in Blackwell, Derbyshire, England

Parents
Joseph Ball
1806 – 1851
Mary Nuthall
1809 – 1854

Spouse and Children
Mary Ann Allen Kerry
1860 –

Elizabeth Ball

Emma Ball

Gertrude Ball

Joseph William Ball

William Ball
1885 –

Thomas Ball
1887 –

John Ball
1890 –


Elizabeth Reek
1849 – 1878

No Spouse

Mabel Ball
1897 –

Elizabeth Ball
1900 –


As Mary is still living with Jesse in 1901, and Mabel and Elizabeth are there, then I would assume that this tree is wrong in saying "no spouse".!


Other information ........

Mary Ann Allen Kerry
Birth 11 OCT 1860 in North Wingfield, Derbyshire, England
Death

Parents
William Kerry
1831 – 1891
Elizabeth Allen
1835 – 1923

from www.familysearch.org/



Jesse Ball, "England, Derbyshire, Church of England Parish Registers, 1538-1910"

Name: Jesse Ball
Event Type: Marriage
Event Date: 19 Jun 1881
Event Place: Blackwell, Blackwell, Derbyshire, England
Gender: Male
Age: 32
Marital Status: Widowed
Birth Year (Estimated): 1849
Father's Name: Joseph Ball
Mother's Name:
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann Allen Kerry
Spouse's Marital Status: Single
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated): 1860
Spouse's Father's Name: William Kerry
Spouse's Mother's Name:
GS Film number: 2082072
Digital Folder Number: 004454307
Image Number: 00464

from familysearch



Jesse Ball, "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975"

Name: Jesse Ball
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 20 Aug 1848
Christening Place: PINXTON,DERBY,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Joseph Ball
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05968-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 428933, 498115
Reference ID:

1901

Name: Lucy Jones
Age: 15
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1886
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Bolsover, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Ault Hucknall
Ecclesiastical parish: Ault Hucknall
Town: Doe Lea
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View Image

Registration District: Mansfield
Sub-registration District: Pleasley
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 114
Piece: 3133
Folio: 15
Page Number: 21
Household Members:
Name Age
John Jones 48 b. Staffordshire
Fanny Jones 45 b. Staffordshire
William Hy Turner 22 Stepson, b. Staffordshire
Ernest John Turner 19 Stepson, b. United States of America, Ohio, Cleveland
Lucy Jones 15

Have you noticed that on the 1881 Census, Jesse is boarding with the Kerry family.

Their daughter Mary Ann is 20

He marries Mary Ann Allen Kerry on 19 June 1881

One tree on ancestry has Elizabeth Reek as born 1849 and died 8 Feb 1878 ....... but no documentation!


One possibility is the following Elizabeth Reek on the 1871 Census.


You may know ............... how close is Bridgford Nottinghamshire to Blackwell Derbyshire??

It is of course possible that if this IS the correct Elizabeth, then she could have moved to the Blackwell area for work.


You'd have to get the marriage certificate to be certain



1871 Census

Name: Elizabeth Reek
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Granddaughter
Father's Name: William Reek
Mother's Name: Ann Reek
Gender: Female
Where born: Bridgford, Nottinghamshire, England
Civil Parish: Flintham
Town: Flintham
County/Island: Nottinghamshire
Country: England
Registration District: Shardlow
Sub-registration District: Castle Donington

Samuel Reek 77 b.ca 1794, Balderton, Nottinghamshire, Head, Widower, Ag Lab
William Reek 50 b.ca 1821, Flintham, Nottinghamshire, Son, Ag Lab
Ann Reek 48 b.ca 1823, Kneeton, Nottinghamshire, Son's Wife (Daughter-in-law)
Elizabeth Reek 21 General Servant
Samuel Reek 19 b.ca 1852, Bridgford, Nottinghamshire, Grandson, Ag Lab

Address:- Village Street, Backside



This seems to be the death the owner of that tree has selected for Elizabeth

Deaths Mar 1878 (>99%)
Ball Elizabeth 29 Belper 7b 341

I think Jesse did marry twice from all this, it would be interesting to know why Elizabeth died. I find it very interesting that Joseph William did not live with Jesse and Mary Ann in the 1891 census when he would have been about 7 years old... There is no mothers name on the birth certificate documentation I have found so far. But Jesse Ball is listed as his father.

Thank you for your help again! I am very much enjoying the search but you guys can find out all the details and I appreciate it very much.

Eleanor, this looks like Joseph William's birth registration and the certificate would name his mother.

Births Jun 1884 Ball Joseph William Mansfield 7b 67

Marriages Sep 1862

Allen Eliza Belper 7b 549 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Kerry William Belper 7b 549 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Wallis Eliza Belper 7b 549
Wheelton Richard Belper 7b 549

This looks like William and Eliza in 1861

Name: William Kerry
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Kerry
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Kerry
Gender: Male
Where born: Swanswick, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Stretton
Ecclesiastical parish: Claycross
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View Image

Registration District: Chesterfield
Sub-registration District: Ashover
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 88
Piece: 2526
Folio: 124
Page Number: 18
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Kerry 56
Elizabeth Kerry 53
William Kerry 25
Thomas Kerry 24
Alfred Kerry 22
Eliza Allen 24
Mary Allen 5

Birthplaces for William and Eliza match those on the 1881 census.

On the image it does give Mary's age as 5 but I wonder if it should actually be 5 months?

On the 1881 census John Simpson Kerry's age on the image is 11 months. Could he have been MAry Ann's son rather than the son of William and Elizabeth?


This seems to be the registration of his birth

Births Jun 1880 SIMPSON John Kerry Mansfield 7b 67

And his death

Deaths Jun 1881 Kerry John Simpson 1 Mansfield 7b 35

Eleanor .....................


you will not in general find any information on the mother of any child on-line

The single possibility is if the child was baptised ................... and none of the children seem to have been baptised OR the relevant Parish Registers have not yet been transcribed or digitized.


You will have to buy Joseph William's birth certificate to find out her name .......... that will contain her name AND her maiden name.


Similarly you will have to buy Elizabeth Reek's death certificate to find out why she died ............... that information will not be found anywhere




As for why Joseph William was not with his parents .......

......... he could have been visiting grandparents or other relations. I did look, but there are lots of Joseph Ball's


The other possibility is that he is in hospital ................. and hospitals and other institutions used initials only.

I did look for a J W B and a range of birth years ..................... but didn't pick up anything.

Thank you both for yet again providing me with such thorough information! I have purchased his birth certificate and I will continue my efforts when it arrives as I am back "on shift" at work for the next couple of weeks so wont have time to fully explore until I'm back at hoome.

Many thanks again
Eleanor