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Thanks, Potty.

I am researching family in Liverpool (Guest, Brooker, Robinson, Welch and Edwards) so I'll look at the site you mention.

Many thanks, too, for the information about the Registrar's responsibilities as I did not know that.

It's true - you learn something every day.

That DOB clinches it, doesn't it? At that time the responsibility for registering births lay with the Registrar and not the parents so very possible that if the child had died when the Registrar called, it would not have been registered.

As to being baptised twice, not usual but not impossible - I was baptised twice. The first time in the hospital where I was born (during WW2 and in an area that was regularly bombed) and later in our Parish church. Also, I was helping somebody on another thread a week or two ago, and found a child that appeared to have been baptised twice - all the details were the same, including the vicar, but two baptisms a few months apart.

As you are researching Liverpool area, are you aware of this site (just found it):

http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/

looks as if it could be very useful.

Potty,

You were right about help. I've had a great deal of help from the Liverpool Registry and that kind person gave me the details to save the cost of buying a copy of the BC. Here they are.

There was no registration for Richard Gorton Guest born 16 July 1839 but there was the following registration.

James Edwin Guest
born 16 July 1839 (no time given)

Place of Birth:
Wright Street [off Scotland Road], Liverpool

Parents:
William Guest & Esther (nee Brooker)

The feeling of the person who gave me the information was that it was unlikely that a child would be baptized twice. Also, I was informed that in 1839 registration of births was not compulsory and it was felt that if there were twins there would be no legal requirement to register both births if one child had already died.

This was pretty much what I expected to hear - no time registered because one child had already died.

Potty,

Thank you for that info. I have not bought the BC yet but I'll check with the local Register Office before doing so.

It would not surprise me to find that this was the case.

It's always worth double-checking I think.

Thanks again,

Joyce

Sorry this is a bit late but have been away.

Sometime ago I helped somebody who had two children of the same age on a census but could only find a birth for one of them. She checked with the Local Register Office where that birth was registered and they confirmed that there was a birth registered for the second child, which was not in the GRO index. If you haven't already bought the cert, perhaps a phone call to the local office might help, although I know some are not that helpful!

Sylvia,

I shall spend £9.25 on the birth certificate of James Edwin Guest as you've been exhorting me to do. If it contains a time of birth as well as the date of birth given for Richard Gorton Guest then my conjecture of twins would probably be proved. However, if no time was recorded and only the date of birth was the same as that provided in the baptism entry for Richard Gorton Guest then it would still be a mystery as to whether they were twins or this was a second baptism for the same child.

However, here's a warning for everyone. As a fellow scientist also used to dealing in facts, I know that certificates can never offer conclusive proof (the name of the father for example unless DNA was obtained) so I believe we have to take into account every scrap of information we can obtain, including baptism entries and information obtained from anyone and everywhere.

Here's an instance of wrong information recorded on a birth certificate.

I have a copy of the birth certificate of one of my grandfathers which gives an incorrect date of birth (2 July). I know this to be fact for two reasons. Firstly, I knew that his birth was always celebrated as being 2 June and I'd been told that the date of birth recorded had been a false one. Secondly, when a younger cousin (born after the death of grandfather) had trouble believing me I searched for grandfather's baptism record at the local record office and found it. It was 25 June - seven days before the dob stated on the birth certificate. His birth was not registered until 16 August so my conjecture (!) would be that the family wanted to avoid any 'comeback' for the long delay in registration; it was easier to give a false date of birth.

I'll let you (and anyone else following this discussion) know whether James Edwin's birth certificate offers conclusive proof.

Anyone want to hazard a guess?

Joy


as a scientist for all MY working life, I learnt that conjecture is part of research, but then one must follow it up by facts



you have been conjecturing about this family for months on here ....................


you have been told several times that you need certificates


I've told you more than once that you need to get that birth certificate


it is now well past the time of conjecture, and time to get some facts



IF that certificate does have a time of birth on it, then your question is probably answered



but there is no other way for you to find out


unless, that is, all you want is for one or more of us to say "yes, you are quite correct in your conjecture"



sorry, but I don't work that way!

You've told me that already Sylvia.

As far as conjecture is concerned I'd have been given the sack at work if I'd contemplated that - facts were part and parcel of my job and my study.

However, lateral thinking often leads to other snippets of information popping up -and in this case it has led to me finding out about the second Richard Gorton's (Guest) WW1 death.

I ask for assistance on Genes because I have found that people will always help if they can. I'm grateful for that assistance and I hope that one day I can reciprocate.

So now, other avenues exhausted, it would be wise to buy the BC but I would not be surprised to find that as only birth was registered there's no time on the certificate.

What say you? Go ahead - contemplate and hazard a guess!

BUY THAT BIRTH CERTIFICATE


you are just jumping to conclusions based on family say-so



none of US can say definitely


so you HAVE to buy James Edwin's birth certificate to see if it does indeed give a time of birth


then I think that you will have some foundation for your theory, instead of just conjecture




I will not help you any more until you do this


I am not into conjecture and airy-fairy theories

Yes, Mary.

Priscilla Gorton and Esther Gorton were sisters. Their parents were Richard Gorton and Esther Benson and I have the details of their marriage.

Esther Gorton (my direct ancestor) married William Brooker and, you're right, Priscilla married Robert Wilding.

So the Gorton name is in both Esther's and Priscilla's family.

Also, Richard Gorton Guest was the name given to my great-uncle. Gorton is given as a middle name to several of the descendants of Richard Gorton.

Interestingly - but nothing to do with this case - William, the son of Priscilla & Robert Wilding married his cousin Priscilla, the daughter of Esther & William Brooker. Again, in the next generation cousins/second cousins marry from both sides of the family: William Wilding & Priscilla Guest.

Also, what a coincidence for me, I am quite friendly with the wife of a cousin on my dad's side and only discovered about a month ago that we share Richard Gordon and Esther Benson as 5 x great-grandparents - on my mam's side.

It truly is a small world.

So what do you think? We shouldn't suppose things or was it twins or one child baptized twice?

Can you say who were the grandparents of Richard and James Edwin Guest were,please.

Esther Brooker had sister Priscilla 1805-1896,she was witness at marriage of William and Esther.

Priscilla Brooker married Jan 1829 to Robert Wilding his parents William Wilding 1768 and Sarah GORTON 1766 her dad Richard Gorton.
So the Gorton name in Priscilla's family!!

Maryb.

Maureen in NY ... you were right about there being only one birth registered with the government.

What do you think? It's a mystery to me.

Surprise, surprise - there's no government registration of the birth of Richard Gorton Guest in 1839 but there is one for James Edwin Guest in 1839.

Two more things spring to mind.

Could this be one and the same child - baptized twice because the parents had changed their mind about the Christian names? Unusual I know.

The only other option I can think of is that Richard Gorton Guest died immediately after his baptism on 9 August 1839 and, as I've heard sometimes happened, was he interred with someone else. If that's the case, we'll never know when this happened. Also, because he'd already died by the date the parents went to register the birth of both boys - if there were two - (in the third quarter of 1839), perhaps they never registered that two boys were born.

Just realized that I ought to have said I've done a wide search for another William & Esther Guest in Liverpool and its surrounds during that period and have not found another couple with those names.

Both boys were baptized. Richard Gorton Guest on 9 August 1839 at St Martin-in-the-Fields, Liverpool - the incumbent noted his birth date as 16 July 1839. James Edwin Guest was not baptized until 29 December 1839 at St Nicholas's, the family having moved to Lime Kiln Lane by then. The interment of James Edwin took place at St Martin-in-the-Fields on 9 February 1841 and the incumbent gave his age as 18 months.

Perhaps this following birth could be a yardstick: Lucy Esther Guest, baptized on 5 July 1837 at Liverpool St Peter's - she was interred at St Martin-in-the-Fields on 10 June 1838 and the abode then given was Eaton Street.

Another baptism regostered to parents William & Esther and this time William is described as a blacksmith: John Guest X (bapt) 28 April 1833 at St Peter's. His burial is 22 July 1833, aged 5 months, at St Martin-in-the-Fields; abode given as Eaton Street.

The birth certificate I have for one of my great-grandfathers gives the time of birth (he is a twin) so I am aware that in most instances this is so.

The two things that point me in the direction of twins (apart from there being many in the family) are:

1. Richard Gorton are family names - with more than one generation being given those Christian names; and

2. The burial address and the father's occupation for James Edwin Guest are known to me.

You're right, of course, the 100%-way of being certain is to buy birth certificates (I'll check for 1839 births), but knowing of the prevalence of twins in the family, the unusual combination of family Christian names, the father's occupation and the area where the family lived almost have me convinced.

true ......................

I hadn't realised that


so we have a major problem proving anything


IfJames Edwin had been one of twins, then it should state the hour of birth on his birth certificate .............. so that could be one clue


and that means it would be well worth buying that certificate


There is no note by the side of Richard's baptism to say PB (private birth) or sickly, or any thing like that ................ something that was relatively common.

As I said,Syls,there doesn't seem to be a birth reg for Richard Gorton...nor any death that I can see.

Moxx

Both babies were born after July 1 1837 ................. so their births should ahve been registered


You HAVE to buy the birth certificates!!!



then you will know for certain sure.


You're grasping at straws, and trying to make figments into facts.



Yes, Vauxhall and Scotland Road are in the same area ................



that does not mean that there could not be TWO families, called Guest, husband William, wife Esther



You have already been told this.


Go to www.freebmd.org.uk


find the birth registrations, and buy them



it will cost you £9.25 each, including post and packing, anywhere in the world

and all your questions will be answered.

We can't do that for you.



The birth certificate will tell you the maiden name of the mother ............... AND also the time of birth if the babies did happen to be twins.

If Esther has a different maiden name on each certificate, then she cannot be the mother of both

Very odd that the birth of James Edwin seems to have been registered but not that of Richard Gorton?
(or am I getting confused?)


Maureen

I ought to have said that James Edwin Guest was interred at St Martin-in-the-Fields, Liverpool on 9 Feb. 1841, age 18 months and the Abode given at time of burial was Lime Kiln Lane.

Also, I ought to have said we have twins (even triplets once) down all of my family lines.