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Jude,

The Charles Martin you have found b.1878 to James and Lucretia was born in Bermondsey, yet the one in the 1911 census at Longfellow Road was born at Hoxton in 1879. I'll retrack the BMD entries.

Brother George is shown as b.1883 at Walthamstow - so that is probably not the George I am looking for after all. My one was also born at Hoxton.

Looks as if I may have the wrong brothers at the wrong place. Cheers for that.

And as I have posted the Charles who married Frances is not the son of William and Emma (see WW1 pension records).

So this is the family in 1891 (as per your post above)
Name: Charles J Martin
Age: 12
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Martin
Mother's Name: Emma Martin
Gender: Male
Where born: Hoxton, London, England
Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
Town: London
View Image
Registration District: Shoreditch
Sub-registration District: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 250
Folio: 170
Page Number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
William Martin 42
Emma Martin 39
James W Martin 15
Emma Martin 14
Charles J Martin 12
William Martin 9
George Martin 7
Walter Martin 5
Henry Martin 3
Alfred Martin 9/12


and 1901

Name: Charles Martin
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William Martin
Mother's Name: Emma Martin
Gender: Male
Where born: Hoxton, London, England
Civil Parish: Shoreditch
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: London
Registration District: Shoreditch
Sub-registration District: Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Schedule Number: 157
Piece: 276
Folio: 156
Page Number: 24
Household Members:
Name Age
William Martin 53
Emma Martin 50
Charles Martin 22
George Martin 19
Henry Martin 13
John Martin 8
Esther Martin 5
Emma Ballinger 23
Walter Martin 15

And this is the marriage of Charles Martin to Frances Gertrude Sandford

Name: Frances Gertrude Sandford
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Age: 23
Spouse Name: Charles Martin
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 May 1903
Parish: Bermondsey St James
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: John Hugh Sandford
Spouse Father Name: James Martin
Register Type: Parish Register

So Frances Gertrude Sandford did not marry the son of William Martin and Emma Reader.

Your research is skewed somewhere.

And as GB says...we are trying to help you to help yourself. If you just want to disagree with everything we are offering and make unhelpful comments, then I really don't know why you are posting - sorry

Jude

Thanks Glitter Baby,

The fact that his birth date and also that of his brother George both seemed to fit the two that were born to William and Emma. I'll check out where we got that from.

We've now found Charles' baptism record and his middle name was John.

Regarding the remarks - "short snappy comments" was made in jest but I thought the reference to comments by Reggie was justified.

That apart, apologies for those asides and, yes, we do appreciate others are doing their best to help us out - certainly a big thank you to all of you.

Just for info

Name: Charles John Martin
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 7 Mar 1879
Father's Name: William Martin
Mother's Name: Emma Martin
Parish or Poor Law Union: Hoxton St John
Borough: Hackney
Register Type: Parish Registers


3 Bristow St.
William is a brass finisher
Charles shown as born 10 Feb 1879

Stephen

You are really not helping by making such remarks as "tetchy comments" and "short snappy comments"

The members that help on the boards are just members the same as you.

We ask questions to try and help with other members research and do like them to be answered.

Sometimes a thank you goes a long way.

The Charles on the 1911 census married without a middle initial so I think some of your research is wrong.


Just for info
Name: Charles Martin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Age: 25
Spouse Name: Frances Gertrude Sandford
Spouse Age: 23
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 17 May 1903
Parish: Bermondsey St James
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: James Martin - deceased
Spouse Father Name: John Hugh Sandford
Register Type: Parish Register

So I think you must go back to the drawing board and revise your research on this because as at the moment you are wasting our time.

Glitter Baby

Reggie, I really don't understand what you are trying to say!

We have done lots of research and arrived where we are now. BMD also told us who Charles married and we know all about the births of his family. We have done all that is possible within the scope of Genes membership and are merely asking if anyone has come across anything else.

If you dont wish to be helpful please refrain from tetchy comments!

Yes we are grateful for the post 1911 info that has come from other members but it takes time to check it out before replying.

Look for his birth...........

Do some research yourself.................it isn't difficult to use freebmd

And kindly acknowledge the post-1911 info posted on here

Our Grandfather was William Martin. Born 1881 Camberwell. We know all about him. Charles and George were his brothers. We know when and where they were born. Charles in 1879 and George in 1883 - both at Hoxton. In 1891 the Martin family was living at 13 Felton Street, Hoxton.

They were still there in 1901 but by 1911 they had split up with Charles having married Frances and his family living at 112 Longfellow Road, Walthamstow where his brother George was living with them. We are trying to find any further info as to what happened to them after 1911.

We fully realise that 1911 was the last published census but there are other records such as electroral rolls etc that I dont have access to - but others may. We were merely hoping that someone might have that information and, if so, they could pass it on to us. So far, we have found them only on one other tree on Genes, and have been in contact. There are some others on Ancestry but they have got no further than us.

As far as middle names go. Charles had a second initial "J" but we dont know what it stood for. George had no other name.

This is the Charles that married Frances

Name: Charles Martin
Age: 3
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relationship to Head: Son
Father: James Martin
Mother: Lucretia Martin
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England
Civil Parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 78 Lynton Rd
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Registration District: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration District: St James Bermondsey
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 570
Folio: 70
Page Number: 16
Household Members:
Name Age
James Martin 37
Lucretia Martin 37
James Martin 17
Saml. G. Martin 16
Albert E. Martin 14
Lucretia Martin 13
Henry Martin 11
William Martin 9
Joseph Martin 6
Elizabeth Martin 4
Charles Martin 3
Thomas Martin 1

So to go back to basics...who was your grandfather? How have you connected to Charles and George (other than the 1911 census)?

Jude

Military record of the man married to Frances Gertrude

Name: Charles Martin
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1879
Age at enlistment: 18
Birth Parish: Bermondsey
Birth County: Surrey
Document Year: 1897
Regimental Number: 13172
Regiment Name: Army Service Corps
Number of images: 5

However....no children listed. Born Bermondsey. Father James...mother Letitia? Brother William James Sisters Louisa and Elizabeth (all listed as nok)

In short the family in 1911 are not the family of William and Emma??????

Jude

Name: Frances Gertrude Sandford
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 28 Mar 1880
Father's Name: John Sandford
Mother's Name: Caroline Sandford
Parish or Poor Law Union: Horselydown St John
Borough: Southwark
Register Type: Parish Registers


Born 11th Feb

Might help you find her death record

Have you checked if Charles and Frances had more children after 1911

Think the two births in 1913 and 1914 belong to another couple

Have you looked at military records to see if either served during WW1 etc etc

Exactly, GlitterBaby.................

Name: George Stanley D Hurst
Birth Date: 19 Jul 1906
Date of Registration: Mar 1979
Age at Death: 72
Registration District: Ipswich
Inferred County: Suffolk
Volume: 10
Page: 2947

Could be the husband of Lily

The marriage is on FreeBMD

If you hope for links on GR................look in 'search all trees'

............people using the boards are very unlikely to be in any way connected

And comment re the info posted would be good......................

No-one can access censuses after 1911..........we all have to research using freebmd....................

The fun of FH is trying to do it yourself.....................you could start by finding the births of the children for full name info

What short snappy comments ?

the reason why we try to get information through genes reunited is because the only thing we have to go on is often quite old information and we cant get access to later census records etc for example if i ask if someone is a descendent of someone born in 1900s they are likely to know through family hearsay pass ons legacies etc also we didnt know until recently even the names of our grandfathers relatives because he changed his name so any amount of info is welcome short snappy comments arent

For INFO

1911 census


Person: MARTIN, Frances Address: 112 Longfellow Road Walthamstow

MARTIN, Charles Head Married M 32 1879 Waterworks Engine Stoker London Hoxton VIEW
MARTIN, Frances Wife Married7 years F 29 1882 London Waterloo VIEW
MARTIN, George Brother Single M 28 1883 Carter Essex Walthamstow VIEW
MARTIN, Charles Son M 6 1905 London Hoxton VIEW
MARTIN, Francis Son M 4 1907 Essex Leyton VIEW
MARTIN, Lily Daughter F 2 1909 Essex Leyton VIEW
MARTIN, Frances Daughter F 0 (6 MONTHS) 1911 Essex Walthamstow

Have you tried looking for info yourself?

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/