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Sorry for the late reply...thank you William.

WW1 Record
Cross A Private
Service Number 49603 13th Battalion Cheshire Regiment
Date of Death 10/10/1916
Grave ref V111 D 12

Cemetery Courcelette British Cemetery
Country France
Locality Somme.

Hi Flip,

Sorry for the late reply.....have been taking care of the grandchildren for a couple of days and Dad not too good at the moment.

Have to agree with you re Martha junior....I also thought of her being adopted out at an early age because Martha 1 had died......but nothing coming up for her asDillon or Cross around that time you would expect. The county hopping is a nightmare...but at least It's sinking in now as to where is where if you get my drift.

The Martha death......Prescott Reg Dis.....that is where Jessie ended up I am sure.

I also am thinking the Liverpool homes records may give us a little info.

Thanks again Flip <3

This is a long shot, but it is the only death I can see for Martha Cross that is anywhere near her age:

Deaths Jun 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CROSS Martha 49 Prescot 8b 447

When Arthur enlisted 11/11/1908 he only named his father and brother as nok - so his mother probably already dead. I know this is later than we expected, but I can't see another for her. Nor can I see another Martha Cross on the 1901 census in this area (other than the other one in Seaforth)

My guess (and that's all it is) is that Martha (1902) was adopted out as a young baby - something happened to Martha (the mother) and William couldn't look after a new baby. I really expected to find a death for Martha around the time of the child's birth but there isn't one.

Not sure where you would start in the records office, you're looking at a family moving between 2 counties on a regular basis here. How on earth can you track them to parishes? I would be curious though to check out the cottage homes admission records to see if anything recorded about why the earlier child(ren) ended up there.

Think the Lucy/William 6year thing was to save face. I think though that they were probably together for that amount of time. However if she was alive you would think that Arthur would have put her not Lucy as his next of kin.

I feel something happened around the years 1902/1905 ......Martha being born 02 then May passing away 03 .......reckon William with Lucy 05.

Martha adopted out.....why.....maybe Lucy did not want a younger child running round the place.....took on the older two.....Gawd it's all running round in my head like an express train......like the answer is there but not able to see it.

Thanks again Flip for your help....I think a trip to Liverpool maybe on the cards.....I hate the Mersey Tunnel lol

Nite nite x

Well, if the marriage for William that Dee posted to Eliza Jepson is right, then maybe he wasn't free to marry? We can't find her in later census, so maybe she was still alive but under a different name.

I'm not finding an earlier marriage for John Henry Sudbury though, so no idea why they didn't marry,they obviously had 2 children together.

Where did she go ......... now that is a real mystery, no death for her under Cross, Sudbury or Dillon ........so did she take up with someone else?

And why did William and Lucy say married 6 years in 1911, when they didn't marry until later. Did William's first wife die just before they married? As you know, Arthur named Lucy on his military record, but it isn't dated, so we don't know when that was filled in.

Like you say Martha is a mystery! :-S

Thanks again Flip.........just getting everything together. I agree re their marriage, no record.

Plus on the 1881 Martha is listed as single.......wonder why they did not marry????

Wonder why she did ot marry William Cross......she is a mystery...where did she go??

Wonder wonder wonder.......secrets and lies :-0

Just looked at your post 24th 19:15 you were thinking about Mary J Dillon, 1878 but she can be ruled out, christening

Mary Jam Dillon
Baptism Date: 1 May 1878
Parish: Everton, St Chrysostom
Father's Name: Granvill Dillon
Mother's Name: Matthew Dillon (Martha)
Reference Number: 283 CHY/2/1

He was a sanitory inspector and this couple went on to have a number of other children.

Not sure he did a runner, he died in Liverpool - so maybe just working away? I'll find the christening image and e-mail it to you.

Deaths Sep 1883 (>99%)
SUDBURY John Henry 29 Toxteth Park 8b 169 Scan available - click to view

OMG......Flip....was the William baptism on Ancestry? Can you send me the original please.

So 2 children with John and no marriage.....Jessie is adopted out......8 children with William Cross and no marriage, plus Martha 1902 is adopted out!

Found last night J Sudbury in Wolverhampton.....me thinks he decided to do a runner.......oh my head!

Thank you <3

Another child for Martha:

William John Sudbury
Birth Date:
22 Dec 1876
Baptism Date:
22 Jun 1877
Parish:
Toxteth Park, St Andrew

Father's Name:
John Henry Sudbury (cotton porter)

Mother's Name:
Gartha Alice Sudbury (Martha on original)

Reference Number:
283 AND/2/2
Address, Court, Leece Street.

This child died Q3/1877

Think John Henry died in 1883 - but I don't think they were ever married. He appears to be in Wolverhampton in 1881, working away?

Thomas Dillon (Chimney sweep)
Age: Full Age
Marriage Date: 18 Aug 1848
Parish: Liverpool, St Nicholas
Spouse's Name: Mary Whitchead (minor, but age not given)
Father's Name: Michael Dillon (bricklayer)
Spouse Father's Name: Thomas Whitchead (Chimney sweep)
Reference Number: 283 NIC/3/37

Witnesses Henry Johnson & John Stephenson

Births Dec 1878 (>99%)
SUDBURY Jessie Liverpool 8b 134 Scan available - click to view

Have sent the christening record by e-mail

Thanks Flip.....sleep tight :-)

I'll have to send it tomorrow, been out for a meal and a couple of drinks so if I send it now who know's what you'll get! :-D

Don't forget to pay off my bet!

Thank you Flip......there are issues with the 1861 and I am sure they include Lancs records....will check.

Have the birth and death of Jessie No1.....did not think Jessie2 would be Mary's.

However there is no birth registered for Jessie that I can see at the moment.....what I am looking at is a Mary J Dillon West Derby 1878??????

On her christening was the Sudbury/ Dillon an error??

Would you mind sending me the image on my talk talk account?

Have a great night and thank you so much.

Annx

Think the 1901 census is way out with the ages. And she probably lied a bit in 1891.

I've found her parents 1851 ( with son James ch 3/9/1848), 1871 with William & George (they also had a child Jessie ch 1863, but she died, address Leece Street) and then in 1881 with Martha & Jessie.

I just can't find them in 1861.

There's no sign of a christening for William, Elizabeth or Martha though. However, George is with married sister Elizabeth (Murphy) and her husband Henry in 1881 - still in Liverpool.

I'm going out for a while, but if you need anything looking up or posting let me know & I'll do it later or in the morning.

Hello Flip,

Firstly thank you for your pm....not that I was hanging around the computer waiting lol

Yes I had located the Dillon family in the 1881 ...Tho Mary Martha Jessie...George and William Dillon included on the 1871.

I also looked at the Elizabeth E and Martha A on the 1871 and made a note. ( where did the A come from) in fact where did the E come from!

My only bug bear is the age of Martha....1858 on the first two census then 1862 and 1869 on the 1901???.

Will read again what you have posted.

Thanks so much Xx

Also think this could be a brother, father a chimney sweep and address Leece Street

George Dillon
Birth Date: 26 Nov 1859
Baptism Date: 28 Dec 1859
Parish: Liverpool, St Peter
Father's Name: Thomas Dillon
Mother's Name: Mary Dillon
Reference Number: 283 PET/2/48

On the christening record his name was George Rice Dillon.