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Dee could be onto something with that 1881 family - Alfred Edward was reg June.80, there is a marriage in same quarter for William Cross to Eliza Ann Jepson. Florence was reg Sept.82, but no sign of them as a family in future census.

Think I've found Florence in Ambleside, a boarder - there are 2 other girls in the household, both boarders also born Liverpool. ADDED: Florence is a housemaid in 1901 in West Ham, born Westmorland, but on the original it states birth place n/k but brought up in Ambleside.

There is an Alfred Cross in Cottage Homes, Fazacklea - and 2 more Cross children, Henry Matthew (6) and William (8) all paupers, born Everton.

Hello Flip,

Still trying to sort out all the info I have......have had a look on Cheshire Wills but they only go up to 1940. Can you send me a reference and address where to apply regarding the probate for William Cross 1942.....I may send for the will.

Thanks again

Annx

Hi Ann

There is no reference, you apply for a copy of the will (if there was one) using death date and probate date already posted. Wills cost £6, but if they don't find one I believe there is no refund:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probate/copies-of-grants-wills

Think I'd be more inclined to send for one of the children's birth certs to get a name for Martha - I think William (1885) may have been registered under her name, if the 1881 family is connected William (Snr) was leading a double life having children with Martha at the same time as Eliza Ann.

The cottage homes, Fazacklea only opened in 1889 and their admission records are held at Liverpool records office.

This blinking site!!!!!!

Yes Flip have decided to send for a birth to verify Martha's ms....am helping a friend who does not do genealogy at all.....so having to explain everything...he is fascinated to say the least.

Now the Martha mentioned on Arthur's pension records listed as sister...before I had seen that....my friend when seeing William with a wife Martha on the census which i was showing him said that he thought Arthur had a sister Martha.......he phoned his older sister and she also remembered a Martha quite elderly when she was small. Am going to give him a call now as he said he was going to find out Martha's married name.

Will let you knowFlip

Annx

Glad you're sending for a birth cert - don't think we'd get any further without one!

I'm just not sure about Martha, why hasn't she appeared on any of the census records? We have the same family 1891-1911 but no sign of her, which was why I went back to the military record to make sure I hadn't "imagined" her.

Look forward to the next update!

OK, facts - William was with Lucy according to Arthur's military record (nok list). William must have married Elizabeth Ellen as she is his widow on probate record with right address. All brothers/sisters named on military record + Martha.

Don't think Martha could have been born post 1911 as both Lucy and Elizabeth Ellen were probably too old.

So, if we are happy with 1891/1901 census what happened to mother Martha? And where did oldest brother William go? Ancestry has links to a Canadian military record for him, with wife Bertha but I'm not sure I can make the connection.

Also, what happened in 1912 to enable William/Lucy to finally marry?

What age is your friend and his older sister - just to get an idea of when they knew the family?

I am losing the plot......slow down Flip lol.

Now how do you know all this from the probate record....I was going to send for it to maybe glean more info....what address???

EDIT: I am on track now Flip...I did miss one of your postings...it is making sense now. However you did ot post a address?? Can you see more info than you posted on Ancestry.

To answer your question re my friend....he was born 1964 and his sister 1958. They both agree the Martha they knew as Arthur's sister had the surname. KIRWEN/KIRWIN.....not sure of the spelling.

Am just going to grab a bite to eat.....catch you later...and thanks a mil!


Annx

Sorry Ann, I don't think I've seen anything on Ancestry other than posted, but the address of 19 Greendale Road, Port Sunlight, runs throughout all the research since before the 1911 census. Incidently - and not connected - my mother lives just over the park from there in Parkside Road, Bebington! So small world.

The only thing I've not posted is the ancestry link to William (1885) who, according to Ancestry was married to Bertha, and served in WW1 in the Canadian forces - though I can't find anything further to prove the link.

So, the Martha your friends remember couldn't be Martha the mother (my original thought) - think she would have been too old to have survived that long, so I wonder who she was? Have you tried looking for a Martha Cross marriage to a Kirwin?

Hello Flip,

My friend is the grandson Of Arthur Cross on the pension records. The SISTER Martha he remembers as Martha Kerwin/ Kerwen.

Flip.....both Martha's are a mystery at the moment am going to have a look now see if I can find anything.

Annx

Don't know if you've found it yet, but there is a marriage in Birkenhead, & I'm guessing the Arthur you are looking at stayed local as they had 2 children in the area:

Martha Cross
Spouse Surname: Kirwan
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1923
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume Number: 8a
Page Number: 822

Married James Kirwan

Name: Martha Cross
Age in 1911: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1903
Relation to Head: Adopted
Gender: Female
Birth Place: Bebington, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Lower Bebington
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England
Street Address: 25 Ingleby Road New Ferry
Occupation: School
Registration District: Wirral
Registration District Number: 451
Sub-registration District: Bebington
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Piece: 21929
Household Members:
Name Age
William Owens 66
Elizabeth Owens 65
James Owens 46
Daniel Phillips 31
Arthur Phillips 12
Daniel Phillips 9
Ethel May Phillips 5
Martha Cross 8
Benjamin Evans 35
Elizabeth Evans 65
Jane Elizabeth Evans 39


And her death?


Name: Martha Kirwan
Birth Date: 7 Oct 1902
Date of Registration: Jan 2000
Age at Death: 97
Registration District: Birkenhead
Inferred County: Cheshire
Register Number: D6C
District and Subdistrict: 0371D
Entry number: 119


Did you get my emails Ann?

I wonder if this gives Martha's (the mother's) name?

Cheshire Birth indexes for the years: 1902
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
CROSS Martha Bebington Wirral DILLON BEB/8/5

I can't see a Cross/Dillon marriage 1875-1903!

Hello Flip......yes I have that one down on a short list....thank you so much. My friend rang this evening and he has ordered the cert from Manchester....should be here Mon/Tues of next week....that's for Martha the mother....we hope lol.


OMG Dee......What a find 1911 census & death.....I had not even started to go there yet....

I did mail you back to say I had one page through on Ipad.....which was quite hardto read even enlarged.....did you send to office one....have not checked that mail box yet.

I will be out tomorrow.....have to take my lovely Dad for his chemo in Birmingham and it is usually late when I get back.....so should you both post...I am not ignoring you lol.

Thanks so much for your help both :-D

Afraid that's me out of here till next weekend - I work in the middle of nowhere with no internet access midweek. But look forward to an update next weekend - hope between the 2 of you you've nailed it by then!

Don't work too hard Flip.....save some energy for the next conundrum :-D

Still waiting for the birth cert...re Arthur Cross....but piecing things together ...re Martha .1902.

Dee.....no pension records came through on talk talk.....think Ancestry have a thing about sharing :-D

Ann - check your messages I've sent one of the images through, showing the family and address. It should work, as it was downloaded from ancestry without a problem. If it does I'll download some of the other pages & send.

Are you taking bets on the mmn? I'll put my quid on Dillon!

Have emailed you this morning Flip....thanks so much. Yes we have a £5 wager as my friend seems to think she may be related to the Owens family. Hope you had a good week.

I was not on yesterday as I had the little darlings while their parents did some painting.

Annx

So, put me out of my misery - has the birth cert arrived yet? Am I a winner

:-D

Martha Dillon
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relationship to Head: Daughter
Father: Tho. Dillon (born Ireland)
Mother: Mary Dillon (born Liverpool)
Gender: Female
Where born: L pl, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Street Address: 2 H 3 Cl Leece St
Education:

Employment status:

View Image
Occupation: Genl Servant (Domestic)
Registration District: Liverpool
Sub-registration District: Mount Pleasant
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 3624
Folio: 112
Page Number: 54
Household Members:
Name Age
Tho. Dillon 53
Mary Dillon 50
Martha Dillon 22
Jessie Dillon 3

Martha A Dillon
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1858
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: Liverpool
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England
Registration District: West Derby
Sub-registration District: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 60
Household Schedule Number: 130
Piece: 3805
Folio: 159
Page Number: 32
Household Members:
Name Age
George B Gerran 30
Celia A Gerran 35
Annie E Gerran 2
George Gerran 9 Months
Elizabeth E Dillon 15
Martha A Dillon 13

Jessie Dillon
Birth Date: 1 Aug 1878
Baptism Date: 6 Jul 1879
Parish: Toxteth Park, St Andrew
Father's Name: John Dillon (this should read Sudbury, hes was coal porter)
Mother's Name: Maratha Dillon
Reference Number: 283 AND/2/2
Abode 2 hse, 3 court, ?? street - I can't make it out