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Elaine, where were Elizabeth Ann and Ellen Jane born?

Nudging this up for Elaine.

please find these people in 1901 census...Mary Ann Cooper(nee Kelly)b.c1871...,Ellen Jane Kelly(or Cooper).,b.c1893....,ElizabethAnn Cooper ,b.c1900.,..and John William Kelly,b.c1873)
Bought another 200 credits,but used them all,and still no closer to finding them!
Will have to wait awhile now,to get more credits..

Elaine

Nudge up please!xxx

mcnv..just looked thro your post on 12th May...I dont think that family of Johnsons,are the ones with dau Maria,who married Thomas Kelly.
I will ask the lady sharing the same family,for the info on the marriage cert..she has a copy.
She did tell me that Thomas had Wrexham as pob,and both grooms and brides fathers were called John...not William the musician,John Kelly is down as a shoemaker
Elaine

please would someone find me Mary Ann Cooper(nee Kelly) and her brother John William Kelly in 1901,cos i've put in every combination of names i can think of....i've used just surnames..,used first and middle names..,used just first names..,used just middle names..,looked in england..,looked in wales.....i don't know WHERE else to look(and Mary Ann had had a baby in 1900(Elizabeth Ann) and another baby was born July 1901(Alice)......so how can i NOT find them?

Is it possible for people to be left off the census,somehow?

cos i have 2 people who dont seem to appear in any way,shape or form!

found Thomas and Maria in 1901..they were living 53,Broom St.,Ince in Makerfield.,Wigan,

head, Thomas Kelly(56)Coal Hewer.,b Llangollen
wife,Maria Kelly(51).,b Manchester
dau,Elizabeth(24),Pit Bank Woman.,b Wrexham.......on 1881 census she down as Mary Elizabeth.,b Broughton.,Denbighshire..is this a district of Wrexham?
son,Richard(21)Coal Labourer Below Ground.,b Wrexham
dau,Rosina(8) b Wigan......this makes her b c1893,so it must be the second dau they called Rosina......the first one was b 1887(KELLY Rosina, Hindley,Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/92/16............then,on Wigan World.,Ince Cemetery,KELLY,Rosina 2yrs.,Warrington Rd.,5th June.1890.,dau of Thomas.,C376* NonCon
Incidentally,Warrington Rd is place of abode on Mary Ann and Richard(John)Coopers dau Alices baptism.

so,Mary Ann or John William werent visiting their parents on night of census,so where were they?!

I am still looking for Mary Ann Kelly in 1901 census(think she married Richard(John)Cooper c 1898,so would prob be Mary Ann Cooper.)
She had a dau Ellen Jane(Nellie)b 1893 and a dau Elizabeth Ann,b 1900...these children weren't living with father,so ,technically,should have been with mother.

Joining Mary Ann on my list of missing Kelly's,on 1901 census,is John William Kelly,her brother!
He went on to marry Emma Jane Neary in c1903,and they lived Ammanford.,Carmarthenshire in 1911 census.

Was there an epidemic or anything going round at that time? Could Mary Ann and John William and the two children have been in hospital? Is there any way of finding out?

I am clutching at straws now......fed up of banging against this brick wall!

mgnv....had to laugh when I saw Grace Kelly and James Bond in the same house!

Re the 1911 census,we're it says Mary Ann had 9 children born alive....5 living(with her and Richard in 1911 census)and 4 dead...
I found bapt ,all at All Saints,for children b to William Griffith and Mary Ann:-
William bapt 6thJun 1887(lower Ince)
Joseph bapt 23rd Sep 1889(Warrington Rd.,Ince!)
Sarah bapt 6thJun1892(Brittania Bridge,Ince)
Edward bapt22nd Oct 1893(Ince)

Did find bapt for Jane bapt 3rdSep 1880,but discounted this as Mary Ann would only have been about 12! This was also William GriffithS......and my 90 yr old aunt is adamant the name was Griffith,without the S ,even tho GriffithS is on their birth Certs and Jane Ellen's marriage cert!

Interesting to see Warrington rd,which has cropped up a couple of times.
Could this be the elusive William Griffith?

Edit the above...have found a marriage for William Griffiths,Chapel Lane TO Mary Ann Davies.,Chapel Lane.....25th Jan 1875.,St George.,Wigan

That's wot I got! (except I haven't looked at Maria Johnsons background yet )
I only found the Horse & Jockey link last night!
Andrew was pretty quick,marrying again,so soon after Elizabeth's death...but on my dads side,my gt gt grandad,Denis Mahon,lost his first wife,Catherine Rice,in Mar 1868,a few days after she gave birth to their 4th child....he married Bridget Farrell in Jul the same year(think it was prob to help look after 3 small kiddies and a tiny baby...but they went on to have a further 6 children!)

I thought maybe this was the case with Andrew Cooper,but I could only find 2 births for Andrew and Elizabeth....26th Jun 1859--St.George.,Wigan>Henry Cooper,son of Andrew Cooper & Elizabeth.(Down Gates.,Scholes)
9th Jun 1862--All Saints.,Wigan>Ann Cooper,dau of Andrew Cooper & Elizabeth(Scholes)
Couldn't see any more.

What do you think of my gut feeling,that Richard Cooper who m Mary Ann,is the same John Richard on 1911census,is the same John Cooper b to Andrew & Ann?

And do you think the most likely John,is the one bapt 1868? Elizabeth Cooper was only buried Sept 1866.....and I know the morals back then could be pretty loose(!),but surely he wouldn't have had a baby with someone else 5mths later?

I also found a few more burials around that time,don't know if they're relevant to me or not.......Burial.,23rd Apr.1865.,All Saints.,John Cooper,age 1(Ince)
Burial.,6th Jan.1867.,All Saints.,Thomas Cooper,age 1 1/2 yrs(180,Scholes St)
Burial.,9th Jul.1871.,All Saints.,Elizabeth Cooper,age 9wks(School St)...School Lane was the abode at the baptism of the first John Cooper,in 1867.

I didn't see you on Wigan World,I don't look at the photos....with me being from Atherton,I am unfamiliar with views round Wigan.
Think I got on WW accidentally..was messing around putting in Jane Ellen,Wigan,and that was a link to WW...I was nosy and took a look!
Will look for your pics..are you under mgnv on there too?
Elaine

Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1869
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
COOPER Richard Robert Wigan Wigan & Leigh ROBINSON WIG/90/481

I think he's your Richard - a look up on Lancs BMD gets:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1852
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
COOPER Andrew FISHER Elizabeth All Saints, Wigan Wigan & Leigh C33/11/216

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1866
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
COOPER Andrew ROBINSON Ann St. George, Wigan Wigan & Leigh C30/2/470

Then a look up on Lan OPC gets:
Marriage: 7 Jun 1852 All Saints, Wigan, Lancashire, England
Andrew Cooper - (X), 22 Collier Bachelor of Horse & Jockey Yard Scholes
Elizabeth Fisher - (X), 26 Spinster of Horse & Jockey Yard Scholes
Groom's Father: Thomas Cooper, Labourer
Bride's Father: Peter Fisher, Deceased
Witness: Thomas Cooper, (X); Margaret Dawber, (X)
Married by Banns by: Howard St.George Curate
Register: Marriages 1851 - 1853, Page 108, Entry 216
Source: LDS Film 1885696

Marriage: 17 Nov 1866 St George, Wigan, Lancs.
Andrew Cooper - (X), full Collier Widower of Scholes
Ann Robinson - (X), Full Spinster of Scholes
Groom's Father: Thomas Cooper, Weaver
Bride's Father: Henry Robinson, Stone Mason
Witness: Thomas Hunter, (X); Mary Jolley, (X)
Married by Banns by: Philip Hains
Register: Marriages 1861 - 1867, Page 235, Entry 470
Source: LDS Film 1885726

Making this likely:
Lancashire Death indexes for the years: 1866
Surname Forename(s) Age Sub-District Registers At Reference
COOPER Elizabeth 37 Wigan Wigan & Leigh WIG/61/29

[I'd expected an earlier death - I could have found this one on FreeBMD, but I'ld still need to check there was no earlier competitor, and pre-1866, the GRO index didn't list age]

==========================
1881 Wales Census
Civil parish: Broughton
County/Island: Denbighshire
Country: Wales
Street Address: Broughton Terrace
Registration district: Wrexham
Sub-registration district: Ruabon
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Piece: 5516 Folio: 18 Page Number: 29-30

Thomas Kelly 36 Llangollen, Denbighshire, Wales Head M Coal Miner
Maria Kelly 31 Madeley, Staffordshire, England Wife M
Thomas Ed. Kelly 12 Preston, Lancashire, England Son Coal Miner
Mary Ann Kelly 10 Whitchurch, Shropshire, England Daughter
Jno. Wm. Kelly 8 Llangollen, Denbighshire, Wales Son
Frances Maria Kelly 6 Broughton, Denbighshire, Wales Daughter
Richard Kelly 1 Broughton, Denbighshire, Wales Son
Thomas Jones 35 Holywell, Flintshire, Wales Boarder Coal Miner
Ezra Anderson 27 Ruthin, Denbighshire, Wales Boarder Blacksmith
Mary Eliz. Kelly 4 Broughton, Denbighshire, Wales Daughter


1871 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KDDD-TB2
[Archive Reference:RG10 Piece Number:2855 Folio:12 Page:17]

[Whitchurch was an original 1837 RD, but was abolished after 6m, and incorporated into Wem RD.
A new Whitchurch RD was created in 1853, and got Whitchurch from Wem, as well as bits of Ellesmere, Gt Broughton, Nantwich and Wrexham RDs.
Whitchurch is abt 25km ESE of Wrexham. Madeley is in Newcastle under Lyme RD, I think in Audley subdistrict.]

1871 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KDDD-TB2
Boarder Thomas Kelly M 24 Denbighshire
Wife Maria Kelly F 21 Manchester, Lancashire
Son Thomas E Kelly M 2 Preston, Lancashire
Daughter Mary Ann Kelly F 0 Whitechurch, Staffordshire
[addy= 3 Hanover St, Hanley; Thos is a Collier; Mary Ann a=6m]
[Archive Reference:RG10 Piece Number:2855 Folio:12 Page:17]


A llok up for Kelly-Johnson marrs gets just one likely hit:
Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
Kelly Thomas Wrexham 11b 544

Clicking on the page # (and reordering) gets:
Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
WILLIAMS William Wrexham 11b 544
EDWARDS Ann Wrexham 11b 544
------------------
Kelly Thomas Wrexham 11b 544
Johnson Maria Wrexham 11b 544

and the next page reorded is:
Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
Reynolds William Wrexham 11b 545
HOWARD Mary Ellen Wrexham 11b 545
-------------------
Rogers Price Wrexham 11b 545
Reynolds Sarah Jane Wrexham 11b 545

Now a look up at http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/ gets:
North Wales Marriage indexes for the years: 1868
Surname Forename Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
KELLY Thomas Wrexham, Civil Marriage Wrexham County Borough (Wrexham) WM/013/15
HOWARD Mary Ellen WM/013/15
JOHNSON Maria WM/013/15
REYNOLDS William WM/013/15

Unlike most local marr indexes, Wrexham indexes their page #, not the entry #. However, abt 50% of time, the local and GRO pages are misaligned (as here) so the 2 indexes combined yield who wed whom.

There's links to all the online local indexes at:
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/local_bmd
There's a seperate Wrexham site:
http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/heritage/archives/websites.htm
but this gives exactly the same result (but does include cemetery records).

To go back with more surety, I would need the m.cert, but my guess for Maria would be:
A possible:
1861 England Census Transcription
Street:63 PETER STREET
County:Lancashire
Parish:MANCHESTER
City:MANCHESTER
Town:MANCHESTER
Ecclesiastical District:ST JOHNS
Parliamentary Borough:MANCHESTER
Registration District:MANCHESTER
Registration Sub-District 2 Deansgate
Enumeration District:20
Archive Reference:RG09 Piece Number:2941 Folio:78 Page:34

JANE JOHNSON 1808 53 Warrington, Lancs HEAD W Music Seller
ELIZA ANN JOHNSON 1840 21 Manchester, Lancs DAUGHTER U Professor of music
JANE JOHNSON 1845 16 Manchester, Lancs DAUGHTER Scholar
MARIA JOHNSON 1851 10 Manchester, Lancs DAUGHTER Scholar
HELENA KUNLINSON 1841 20 France VISITOR Gentlewoman


1851 England Census Transcription
Street:25 GRANBY ROW
Parish:MANCHESTER
City:
County:Lancashire
Division Of County:
Ecclesiastical District:
Enumeration District:
Hamlet:LONDON ROAD
House Name:
House Number:
Parliamentary Borough:
Municipal Ward:
Registration District:MANCHESTER
Folio:
Page: 14
Source:
Archive Reference:HO107 Piece Number:2228

WILLIAM JOHNSON 1808 43 Manchester, Lancs Head M Musician
JANE JOHNSON 1807 44 Lancs Wife M
FANNY (MARY) JOHNSON 1780 71 Lancs Mother W
SARAH (LOUISA) JOHNSON 1838 13 Lancs Dau Scholar
ELIZA ANN JOHNSON 1840 11 Lancs Dau
WILLIAM JOHNSON 1842 9 Lancs Son
JANE JOHNSON 1844 7 Lancs Dau
MARIA JOHNSON 1850 1 Lancs Dau
[One of the water-damaged sheets]

Clearing up some outstanding odds & ends

My dad's Auntie Nellie appears on the census as Hellen. I've no doubt Nell and Ellen are the same person, with essentially the same name.

I didn't think that there were 2 Canal Streets in Wigan - well, technically one's in Ince. I assumed the Canal St referred to was the one I knew, near Dougie Bank, abt 1 km W of the workhouse. This seemed to fit, being right next door to Douglas Bank Colliery, where my wife's gran's uncle and cousins worked - one was killed there by a runaway tram.

When I look at the 1891 census for 4 Canal St, the first addy on the page is:
190 Ince G(reen) Lane

1891 England Census Transcription
Street:4 CANAL STREET
Parish:INCE IN MAKERFIELD
Town:INCE IN MAKERFIELD
County:Lancashire
Country:ENGLAND
Ecclesiastical District:CHRISTCHURCH
Parliamentary Borough:INCE
Registration District:WIGAN
Registration Sub-District 4E Hindley
Enumeration District:29
Archive Reference:RG12 Piece Number:3061 Folio:105 Page:7

THOMAS KELLY 1843 48 Llangollen, Wales HEAD M Coal Miner
MARIA KELLY 1848 43 Manchester WIFE M
THOS EDWARD KELLY 1869 22 Preston, Lancs SON S Coal Miner
MARY ANN KELLY 1871 20 Whitehaven?, Shrops DAUGHTER S Cotton Mill Hand
FRANCES M KELLY 1874 17 Buney?, Wrexham DAUGHTER S Cotton Mill Hand
MARY ELIZTH KELLY 1877 14 Buney?, Wrexham DAUGHTER S
RICHARD KELLY 1879 12 Buney?, Wrexham SON
GRACE KELLY 1885 6 Lower Ince, Lancs DAUGHTER
JAMES BOND 1853 38 Glossop, Derbyshire LODGER M Coal Miner

Go to and search for coords = 359300,404700 and select the 1908 1:2500 map. Canal St is in extreme NE corner, just across canal from Ince Stn. Ince Green Lane runs over the bridge by the station - follow it SW - the road forks at Manley St, both lead to Warrington Rd, Ince (A573) - a difft st from Warrington Rd, Wigan (A49). If I head Sfrom the junction of Warrington Rd, Ince (A573) & Ince Green Ln for 400m, Cemetery Rd is on W side, along with Ince Cemetery. If I take Cemetery Rd W across the railroad tracks, I come to Wigan Cemetery.

Grace Kelly's not too common a name for the 1880s.
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/ has only one likely Grace Kelly
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1884
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KELLY Grace Hindley Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/81/398

Ther's another Johnson in 1881-91
Lancashire Birth indexes for the years: 1887
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name Reference
KELLY Rosina Hindley Wigan & Leigh JOHNSON HNDL/92/16

http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/incecemetery.php?opt=incecemetery
Kelly Rosina 2 yrs Warrington Rd. 05-Jun 1890 dau of Thomas C 376 * Non Con

Incidentally, I am familiar with the site - I imagine you got there thru an earlier post of mine - try Photos of Wigan - Wigan streets.

http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/cemetery.php?opt=cemetery
Kelly Thomas 46 hrs Wigan Union 05-Sep 1888 K 695 * C of E
Kelly Samuel 23 days Wigan Union 05-Sep 1888 K 695 * C of E

The parish entry says they were both born & baptized 1/9/1888. A marginal P would mean a private baptism. I think Sam's age was 23hrs, misentered or mistranscribed as 23d.

nave found more births for Richard Cooper and Mary Ann.........MARY ANN COOPER.,b.Mar 1915.,mmn Kelly.

[twins]ANN COOPER and ETHEL COOPER,reg.JulAugSep 1917.,mmn Kelly.

As mgnv found,Richard Cooper died in Jun 1916,so twins must have another father.

A VERY interesting fact I came across was,in 1911 census,above the name Richard,on the same line,was the name John.

I searched everywhere for a John Richard Cooper,with father Andrew and mother Ann,but found zero.
Then tried just the John Cooper...bingo!..there were 2,but i dont know if first one died and second one called after him(also first Ann had an e..Anne)

Bapt..11th Feb 1867.All Saints.Wigan
John Cooper.,son of Andrew & Anne..abode.,School Lane
b.5th Feb 1867....father>labourer

Bapt.12th Jun 1868.,All Saints.Wigan
John Cooper.,son of Andrew and Ann(this spell of Ann is same as 1901 census and her death in 1912)..abode.,Scholes
father>labourer

Have looked for a burial for the first John,but cant find one.....note on both bapts said P...is this when they christened at bedside in Private?

Now comes the interesting bit.....on my grandma Ellen Jane(Jane Ellen)s bapt..under father,"John" was written and crossed out(it says this on notes)

Could this mean that John,(or John Richard) Cooper,could be my grandmas birth father?

On 1911 census,Mary Ann had given birth to 9 living children...5 were alive(they all lived with Mary Ann & Richard in 1911) and 4 died.
I have a gut feeling the twins b in workhouse,and died within hours,in 1888,were 2 of them(one was Thomas,same name as her father)...can anyone find 2 more births,likely to be born to Mary Ann Kelly,please?
Elaine :-S

mgnv.....have you seen the site Wigan World? Its very interesting.....people recalling their early years,history of the town etc

Very interesting,M.....50,Queen St is the address on my grandma Jane Ellen(Ellen Jane)Kellys marriage cert at her first marriage to Charles Edward Anderson,in 1915......now you tell me Richard Cooper and his mother,Ann,lived at 50,Queen St,at the time of their deaths!

in 1891 census,Mary Ann Kelly(my gt grandma)was living 4,Canal St.,Wigan,with parents,Thomas & Maria Kelly,and her siblings........4,Canal St.,was place of abode on my grandmas baptism

1901 census,cant find Mary Ann ANYWHERE!,but Richard Cooper is living with his parents and siblings at 59,Warrington Rd,..........59,Warrington Rd is place of abode at the bapt of Richard and Mary Anns dau Alice,in Jul.1901

As Christina,here on GR pointed out...in 1911 census,Richard and Mary Ann were living 1,Fairhurst St.,off Gt George St.,Wigan. There with them were daus Nellie(18).,Elizabeth Ann(11).,Alice(9) .,sons John William(7).,Henery(5) and Richards brother,William(26)

This Nellie,being 18 yrs old,makes her b.c1893(the yr my grandma was born)....could this Nellie be Ellen Jane?...seems likely.

on census,it says Mary Ann had 9 children born alive...5 still living(the 3 girls and 2 boys in 1911?)

At least with all the addresses matching baptisms and marriage,I think I am on the right family!

Just need to know where Mary Ann was in 1901 now.....dont know what month census was that year,but dau Alice was b July....so she would have been close to giving birth,surely?

http://www.wiganworld.co.uk/stuff/cemetery.php?opt=cemetery
Surname Forename Age Place of Death Date Year Notes Grave Cremation Religion
Cooper Ann 62 yrs 50 Queen St 02-Nov 1912 P 475 * C of E
Cooper Richard 43 yrs 50 Queen St. 08-Jun 1916 P 405 * C of E
[date is of burial, not d.o.d.]

I think Ann is Richard's mum - see 1881:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQXH-H2V
Warrington Rd is the A49 heading S (to Warrington) - abt 800m from railroad tracks, it becomes Wallgate - the last turn off to the right before going under railroad is Queen St. The A49 is now diverted down Queen St, but it used to follow Wallgate under the tracks, past the station to All Saints C of E, then up Standishgate (now a pedestrian precinct) and onto Wigan Lane (where the new diversion rejoins the old route), past the infirmary, and out to the N.

Rellies keep sending me links to Edwardian pics of central Wigan - the most surprising thing is everyone wore hats - even 10 y old kids had cloth caps on!

please,please,please,please.....help me find Mary Ann Kelly in 1901.....she seems to have disappeared of the face of the earth!

App,she seems to have married Richard Cooper in 1898.....I found her living with him and their children in 1911 census(at least i THINK its her!),but in the 1901 Census,Richard is living with his parents at 59,Warrington Rd.,and down as single!

Incidentally,59,Warrington Rd is the address on the baptism of Richard & Mary Anns' first child,Alice,on 16th Jul 1901!

NOTHING is straightforward in our family!!

I know I have asked for a lot of help,but i DO try to do what i can myself first.

Elaine. :-(

they seem to have disappeared Mary....cant understand why she wasnt with Richard Cooper in 1901...she had his baby not long before,and had more children after.

I even looked at Welsh Census,in case she was visiting there.

Dont have a clue where to look now! :-(

Thnx for looking anyway.

Elaine.x

No Elaine ,I couldn't find them either.

Maryb