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I haven't been able to find a marriage either, maybe they didn't marry or Caroline was married to someone else. I just don't know.

I suppose he could be. I just imagined that as they lived in the same building, they may have become close when Thomas' wife died. I wonder why they didn't marry though. Or did they, and I didn't see it?

Do you think it's possible that Thomas was James step father? James mother was Caroline Brown born c1838 and I think that is where the Brown came from. Caroline may have had James illegitimately and then married Thomas. I don't know why James changed his name to Holloway and then added the Brown later on. On his death certificate he is James Holloway Brown.

No information, I'm afraid. Just to let you know that we are still looking.

It certainly looks like James and his brother George were the sons of Thomas Holloway, and almost certainly born in Marylebone. But I can't find any birth registration or baptism for either of them.

I like to think that James was born in 1864, as Mary Holloway didn't die until the 3rd quarter of 1863.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1350720

I think you maybe right, I have a feeling that I noticed Caroline in this Workhouse but dismissed it because of the age difference. On reflection it could be a mistake on the part of the enumerator , Mary Ann's age is correct. Perhaps their parents died or were too ill destitute to care for them. Another mystery appears. I think Bexley is part of Dartford. Would the Workhouse records give more information?

Although the ages are out by a couple of years, I wonder if this is the sisters in 1841. In the Dartford Union House

1841 England

Civil Parish: Dartford
Hundred: Axton, Dartford and Wilmington
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration District: Dartford
Sub-registration District: Dartford

Piece: 482
Book: 5
Folio: 31
Page Number: 3
Household Members: Name Age

Mary A Brown 13
Caroline Brown 7

I haven 't been able to find them in 1841. I think their father would be John because Mary Ann named him. James named his father as Thomas Brown on the second certificate. It would seem that he was very confused about who his father was. I can't understand why Caroline would be in the workhouse though.perhaps her parents died and she became destitute. I really appreciate the trouble you are taking form me .

When Caroline's sister, Mary Ann Brown, got married to John Elwood in 1853 she gave her father's name as John Brown - a gardener.

On the IGI on familysearch, there's a Mary Ann Brown baptised 1831 in Bexley - parents John and Dorothy Brown.

I can't see a matching baptism for Caroline though.

They have a Caroline Brown baptised 1836 in Bexley, parents John and Mary Brown. But Caroline consistently gives her birth year as 1838.

I can see Caroline on the 1851 census (a pauper in the Dartford Union Workhouse) but I can't find Mary Ann. Nor can I see either of them on the 1841.

Have you managed to find them?

So do you assume that James Holloway Brown just didn't know who his real father was, which is why he put James Brown on his marriage certificate - 1888.

Do you know who he named as his father on his 1910 marriage certificate?

James first marriage was to Sarah Ann Davey at Christ Church, St Paul Deptford in June 1888. Sarah died in 1908. His second marriage was to Julia Mary Stanmore at Hackney Registry Office in September 1910

It's rather complicated. James mother was Caroline Brown c1838 born Bexley. She was married to Thomas Holloway 1818 James was born in c1863 in Marylebone although in the census' he gives different places of birth. In the 1871 census he is Holloway living in Marylebone with parents and brothers. In 1881 he is Holloway living with parents. In 1891 he is Brown living in willesden with wife Sarah Ann and daughter Caroline 1889. In 1901 he is Holloway living in Hackney where he has an oil and paint shop with wife Sarah, Caroline, George and William. My grandmother Alice is elsewhere. In 1911 he is Holloway living in Hackney with second wife Julia and sons William and George, Caroline having died in 1905. Incidentally he is Brown as is Caroline on her death certificate.
On James first marriage cert in 1888 he is Brown, on the second marriage to Julia in 1910 he is Holloway Brown. On his death cert in 1922 he is Holloway Brown also on his will.
I hope this isn't too much info but it's difficult to explain without putting all that in.

There is tree on Ancestry that has James on it. If you do not have access to Ancestry, you can view it on the Mundia site.

This tree has Thomas Holloway as being married to a Mary Gardiner who died in 1863. It also has a brother, George, whose marriage is below. A J Brown was one of the witnesses. Thomas's occupation given as Coach Smith, which is the same as in the census below:


London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name:George Holloway
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1865
Age:26
Spouse Name:Mary Elizabeth White
Spouse Age:24
Record Type:Marriage
Event Date:27 Sep 1891
Parish:Langham
Borough:Westminster
Father Name:Thomas Holloway
Spouse Father:George White
Register Type:Parish Register


1881 England Census
Name:Thomas Holloway
Age:62
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1819
Relationship to Head:Head
Spouse:Caroline Holloway
Gender:Male
Where born:London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish:Marylebone
Street Address:18 Harrow St
Marital Status:Married
Occupation:Coach Smith

Thomas Holloway 62
Caroline Holloway 42 b Bexley
James Holloway 18 b Marylebone.

I that tree is correct, it looks as if James was born before the marriage.

Do you know who James married and when and where?

Where does James call himself Brown? Is it on a census?

I'm trying to find details of my gig grandmother Caroline Brown She was born in Bexley in c1838, she had a sister Mary Ann, I do not know their parents. Caroline married? Thomas Holloway around 1863. She had a son, James, born in Marylebone in 1863. Strangely he called himself James Brown not Holloway so it's hard to know who his father is. I can't find the births of James or Caroline.

Thank you Christina I have to admit I hadn't noticed that. Hopefully this will be a new lead. Thanks for looking.

On the 1911 census, James claims to have been born in Bexley, Kent

I have deleted the other thread. Thank you Potty for looking up the baptisms for me, It doesn't look as though my James is there. At least I know to stop looking there. Greatly appreciated.

These are the Brown baptisms for 1862-1866 at Deptford:

Match quality: 3 out of 5 Rosina Kate Brown 30 Dec 1866 James Henry De Vere Brown,
Emily Christiana Brown Deptford St Nicholas Greenwich

Match quality: 3 out of 5 Walter Frederick De Vere Brown 29 Apr 1866 James Henry Devere Brown,
Emily Christiana Brown Deptford St Nicholas Greenwich

Match quality: 3 out of 5 Richard Edmund Brown 31 Oct 1860 James Brown,
Mary Brown Deptford St Paul Lewisham

Match quality: 3 out of 5 Emily Christiana Brown 28 Feb 1869 James Henry De Vere Brown,
Emily Christiana Brown Deptford St Nicholas Greenwich

Match quality: 3 out of 5 Elizabeth Brown 30 May 1870 James William Brown,
Elizabeth Brown Deptford St John Lewisham

Match quality: 2 out of 5 Arabella Brown 24 May 1857 James Brown,
Elizabeth Brown Deptford St Paul Lewisham

Naomi, it would be better to delete your other thread and continue with this one.

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/ancestors/thread/1330565