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Thanks Kucinta, your help has been very supportive, I will plod on, and try to solve the mystery. Sheba.

HI,

I see what you mean about the dots.

However the details are in the section for Full Blood brothers of the soldier, and age 23 would be correct for Henry James England in July 1920.

There is a section further down the page for nephews and nieces of the soldier [Harold] to be entered, but ONLY if there are no full blood parents or siblings left.

So there would be no reason to record a child of Henry James, legitimate or otherwise, as Harold had at least the two sisters Mabel, Muriel and brother Horace still living.

There are four marriages for a Henry J England in the London area between 1918 and 1930, but I have no idea if any of them are your man.

Personally I believe the form indicates Henry James did survive the war, but obviously have no idea why he lost touch with the rest of the family some time after 1920.

I think Henry James has a different address to the rest of the family as being aged 23, he had simply left home, whether or not he was married or had a family of his own.

Another mystery to solve...

EDIT: If you mean that 'Henry James' aged 2 yrs 3 months might have been a illegitimate child of Harold , I would have expected him to be listed in the section for 'children of the soldier' but it has 'none'.

If the child was 2 yrs 3 months in July 1920, then he would have been born after the death date of 22/03/18 assigned to Harold by the military, so Harold would have had no imput in his name.

Hello Kucinta, how amazing, I am totally intriqued, the information you have found out is truly amazing, I do appreciate all your effort, it would have taken me months to have got this far. And as for Henry, I have never been aware of his presence, as I grew up, My father who, is now dcsd., and was the youngest of the family never spoke about him. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, I only have three surviving cousins, one of which led me to believe he perished in ww1. I was curious on the blood relations, why they had put dots between the 2 & 3 almost reading 2 yrs 3 mths, but it doesn't suggest he had any children of his own. I wondered if as the address was different he had a partner with an illegitimate child, and didn't want it to be known, and because of his brother's demise, he had named it after him. Just a thought, is this Henry James jnr.? Will have to try and untangle the web a little further. Thank you again, you have been a great help.
Sheba

Looking at the image I mentioned earlier, where Harold Edward England's kin are listed, the page is dated 30th July 1920.

Henry James England is said to be aged 23, and living 48 [Waltham?] Rd Forest Hill, a separate address from the rest of his family. Aged 23 would be right for a Dec 1896 birth.

Horace Arthur is aged 4, which is correct.

Mabel Victoris is recorded as 19, Muriel Gladis as aged 9.

So does this indicate that Henry James England survived the war?????

Did Henry James England definitely die in the war?

Births Dec 1896 England Henry James Hackney 1b 483


?????

Name: Henry J England
Birth Date: abt 1897
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1965
Age at Death: 68
Registration District: Waltham Forest
Inferred County: Greater London
Volume: 5e
Page: 296

I can't find another Henry J England birth in freeBMD in the right time frame.
EDIT: There are other Henry J's in census material though.

Sheba, I think this is the record for Harold, as I have found his war record, which gives the correct names of his family. I will pm the war record images to you.

ENGLAND, HAROLD EDWARD

Rank:
Pioneer
Service No:
221837
Date of Death:
22/03/1918
Regiment/Service:
Royal Engineers

30th Signal Coy.
Panel Reference
Panel 10 to 13.
Memorial
POZIERES MEMORIAL

Additional Information:

EDIT: This is the war record I found. Age seems a little out, but in the papers he lists his parents as Henry and Mabel England, and lists sibs, Henry James, Horace Austin {EDIT Horace ARTHUR, not Austin - I need new glasses], Mabel Victoria and Muriel Gladis. Brother Henry James England aged 23 has a different address to the rest of the family (image harold8)

Name: Harold Edward England
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1897
Age at enlistment: 18
Residence: 1 Bexhill Road, Crofton Park SE
Document Year: 1915
Regimental Number: 221837
Regiment Name: Royal Engineers Signal Section
Number of images: 10

Images have been pmed to you

Likely birth:

Births Jun 1898 England Harold Edward Hackney 1b 523

For first world war deaths go to this site !

http://www.cwgc.org/

It is free but you may have to register first.

Dea x

There is this possibility, but unfortunately the 'additional information' that might have had details of parents or spouse etc, is empty:

ENGLAND, H J

Rank:
Driver
Service No:
80736
Date of Death:
30/11/1917
Regiment/Service:
Royal Engineers

96th Field Coy.
Grave Reference
IV. C. 12.
Cemetery
METZ-EN-COUTURE COMMUNAL CEMETERY BRITISH EXTENSION

Additional Information:

Can somebody tell me how I can get definite proof that two of my uncles died in the first world war. I do not know in which regiment they were in, or service, but have been told by a cousin that they both perished in ww1. I have tried to research the military records, but as one was named Henry James England, born 14.12.1896 and the other Harold England, born 1899, both seem to be very common names for that period. All the records I have picked up do not show any date of birth, or relatives to link them. I am lost. I feel I need some proof, perhaps the name of a widow or parents. Parents were Henry England 1866 - 1939 and Mabel ( nee Partridge) 1875. Can you get copies of death certificates if records do not show anything, and who from, as these were possibly army, air-force or navy. Any leads would be appreciated, many thanks. Sheba.

That is amazing, thank you so much everybody. To think I have spent three afternoons on this and you come back with the answers within the hour. I guess I will have to change my search engines to get some more accurate answers. Thanks again. Sheba.











heba

if you google Henry England married Martha there is someone tracing a tree called Paull who states that Martha Paull married Henry England

and a tree on Ancestry

(should be verified of course)

marriage for these Crewkerne Somerset 25 May 1829

From Free Reg


County Somerset
Place Shepton Beauchamp
Church St Michael
RegisterNumber
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 08 Jun 1803
Forename Henry
Sex M
FatherForename Edward
MotherForename Joan
FatherSurname ENGLAND
MotherSurname
Abode
FatherOccupation
Notes
FileNumber 12457

1851

Edward England
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Henry England (Born Shepton Beachamp)
Mother's name: Martha England (Born Misterton)
Gender: M (Male)
Where born: Martock, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Martock
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

View image

Registration district: Yeovil
Sub-registration district: Martock
ED, institution, or vessel: 1d
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 88
Piece: 1930
Folio: 78
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Henry England 48
Martha England 41
Edward England 20
Harriett England 18
Maria England 16
George England 14
Martha England 11
Joan England 10
Serrian England 8
Mary England 8
William England 4
Susan England 2

This is Henry' parents marriage


County Somerset
Place Long Load
Church Christ Church
RegisterNumber 49
MarriageDate 25 May 1854
GroomForename Edward
GroomSurname ENGLAND
GroomAge 24
GroomParish
GroomCondition Bachelor
GroomOccupation Wheel
GroomAbode Load
BrideForename Eliza Ann
BrideSurname PERREN
BrideAge 26
BrideParish
BrideCondition Spinster
BrideOccupation
BrideAbode Load
GroomFatherForename Henry
GroomFatherSurname ENGLAND
GroomFatherOccupation Wheelwright
BrideFatherForename John
BrideFatherSurname PERREN
BrideFatherOccupation deceased
WitnessOneForename Thomas
WitnessOneSurname PERREN
WitnessTwoForename Maria
WitnessTwoSurname ENGLAND
Notes Banns; Married in Chapel of Long Load
FileNumber 25133

Marriages Dec 1898
Barker George Paddington 1a 46
England Mary Ann H Paddington 1a 46


Edit marriage on London archives


Mary Ann Hill England spinster age 39 father Edward England (farmer) deceased
George Barker 32 coachman

witness 1 Henry England
witness 2 Elizabeth (Murty??)

1901 England Census
about Eliza A England
Name: Eliza A England
Age: 72
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Mother-in-law
Gender: Female
Where born: Long Load, Somerset, England
England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
about Eliza Ann England
Name: Eliza Ann England
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1904
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Paddington
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1a
Page: 21


Civil parish: Paddington
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: London
Country: England

Registration district: Paddington
Sub-registration district: St Mary, Paddington
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 349
Piece: 5
Folio: 67
Page Number: 45
Household Members: Name Age
George Barker 34
Mary Barker 41
Eliza A England 72
Horace J Adams 23
William J Parkins 21

1861


Edward England
Age: 31
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza Ann England
Gender: Male
Where born: Martock, Somerset, England

Civil parish: Drayton
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

View image

Registration district: Langport
Sub-registration district: Curry Rivell
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 21
Piece: 1631
Folio: 59
Page Number: 5
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward England 31
Eliza Ann England 31
Thomas P England 6
Mary A H England 2
Rosa England 1
James Hallett 21
Joseph Hallett 17
Julia Anna Sharman 16


Carpenter on 1861 too

Calls himself a carpenter here

1881 England Census
Name: Edward England
Age: 52
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Long Load

Civil parish: Elworthy
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England

Street Address: Rectory Cottage
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Carpenter

Registration district: Williton
Sub-registration district: Stogumber
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 2357
Folio: 49
Page Number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas England 26
Edward England 52
Eliza Ann England 53
Harry England 15
Joseph England 12


1891 England Census
about Eliza A England
Name: Eliza A England
Age: 60
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Gender: Female
Where born: Matlock, Somerset, England

Civil parish: St Giles
Ecclesiastical parish: st bartholomew
Town: Reading
County/Island: Berkshire
Country: England


Registration district: Reading
Sub-registration district: St Giles
ED, institution, or vessel: 33
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 998
Folio: 120
Page Number: 16
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Pearse 69
Annie Pearse 27
Eliza A England 60

This looks like the father


1841 England Census
about Edward England
Name: Edward England
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Somerset, England

Civil parish: Martock
Hundred: Frome Martock
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England


Registration district: Yeovil
Sub-registration district: Martock
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 951
Book: 2
Folio: 53
Page Number: 25
Household Members: Name Age
Henry England 35
Martha England 30
Edward England 11 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Harriett England 9
George England 5
Martha England 2
Jane England 6 Mo


And his death


England & Wales, FreeBMD Death Index, 1837-1915
Name: Edward England
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1882
Age at Death: 52
Registration district: Williton
Inferred County: Somerset
Volume: 5c
Page: 207

1871 census

how about this one , farmer, Joseph and Mary ?

Henry England
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edward England
Mother's name: Eliza Ann England
Gender: Male
Where born: Curry Rivel, Somerset, England
Civil parish: Elworthy
Ecclesiastical parish: Bath and Wells
Town: Elworthy
County/Island: Somerset
Country: England
Registration district: Williton
Sub-registration district: Stogumber
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Household schedule number: 9
Piece: 2355
Folio: 53
Page Number: 2
Household Members:
Name Age
Edward England 42
Eliza Ann England 43
Thomas P England 16
Mary Ann H England 13
Henry England 5
Joseph England 2