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To answer your queries, JoonieCloonie, I started by looking on the 1881 census for a Charles born around 1863 in Writtle. When I found this one, living in Loughton and with a father Charles, I thought they were worth delving into.

My Hornes drove me mad for years! Back to 1860s living in Hoxton, London. Before that they were in Buckinghamshire. Possibly related to you?

Well done for finding that newspaper article ChrisHo! Luckily it doesn't look as though JayneB is a direct descendant of Moses Smith. These are the sort of things we don't want to find out aren't they.

Looking through the posts.

If Christinas original assumption is correct then the Sarah Mills JoonieCloonie has found in the 1861 cannot be the same Sarah who married Charles

"In 1861 census - Elsenham, Essex

Charles Anderson - 1814 - brush maker - Norfolk
Sarah Anderson - wife - hawker - Wades Mill, Herts. (note the same village)
Susan Ann Anderson - dau - 1860 - Stevenage

Susan Ann above was actually registered as Susan Ann Mills"

Oh dear JoonieCloonie, I'm so sorry I wasted your time last night. You were reading the foolish words of someone on their way to bed. Using my IPad and going from "memory" rather than checking the facts. You're quite right of course - 1881 not 1871. I will be much more careful from here on.

??

Marriages Sep 1885

LITTLE James Epping 4a 277
MILLS Rossetta Epping 4a 277

Hi everyone,

Thank you again for all of the details you keep adding.

I am going over all of the information again and wondered if can anyone see the marriage Christina mentioned last night?

"When Rose married in 1885 she named her father as Charles Mills dec'd - traveller"

27 August 1869 - Chelmsford Chronicle - Chelmsford,

The Gypsies again.—A rough-looking fellow, who gave the name of Moses Smith, appeared to a summons charging him with having assaulted his wife at Loughton.-Defendant and his wife live on the forest and lead a roving dissipated life, and a few days since the wife applied for a summons against her husband, stating that he has brutally assaulted her. Today, however she did not appear, and defendant stated that his wife came home drunk and fell against the sides of their van. Remanded for a week, and bound over to appear.

(probably hiding in Forest 1871!)

Chris :)

(probably not relating, but saw below)

Baptism (Find My Past)
First name(s) SALONA
Last name MILLS-SMITH
Birth year 1875
Baptism year 1875
Baptism day 20
Baptism month JUN
Place EAST TILBURY
County Essex
Mother's name X
St.Catherine East Tilbury 1799-1880 baptisms
Record set Thames & Medway Baptisms

I was blamed if I could find Moses Smith and John Mills in 1871 at Ancestry ...

at familysearch

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQZC-PW5

was looking for Moses' details to find him in other years


well this is 1881 in Woodford

aged 65/1816, born Weathampstead Herts, occupation Gipsy, address Caravan &Tent Birkbeck Estate Near White Hall Rd, Woodford Essex

wife Fanny Smith, 64, born Leicester
daughter Fambridge Smith, 17, born Loughton

actually two grandchildren
Ambrose Mills 19 Hertford
Galouse Mills 9 Epping

but John Mills 9 Loughton is shown as nephew

so that John was born c1872, not the same one
... no wait, in 1911 (with wife Lydia) he is shown as born c1872 in Loughton, so it's him? but nephew?

John W in 1901, John William in 1911:

Births Dec 1869
Mills John William Epping 4a 94

... but there is also a John in Epping in 1866 who would match the age 34 in 1901 ...

and who are Ambrose and Galouse the children of?

the Moses and Fanny Smith household in Loughton 1891 is no help

Moses Smith 81 tinker
Fanny Smith 62
Golie Smith 2 son, yes that's likely ... okay really says 20 so that is Galouse, may say Golias
Thomas Smith 10
William Perich 4


1861 in Barnet Herts, in caravan

Moses Smith, 42, place of birth NK, Tinman & Brazier at the Fair
Fanny Smith, 40, place of birth NK
(but if that is them their ages would have to be understated)

>> and the interesting bit in the next caravan

William Mills 26 Mat Maker at the Fair
Sarah Mills 24
John Mills 4 son
Alice Mills 3 daughter
... and the page is damaged, there might have been another name but probably not


and could that be the Smith-Mills connection, Sarah Smith married to (or at least partnered with) William Mills?


... but ... could this be Sarah and William in 1851 in Ludon Beds?

William Smith 38 ag lab born Luton Beds
Sarah Smith 24 bonnet maker born Flamstead Herts
Clarendon Smith 7 born Luton
Sarah Smith 1 born Rickmansworth
Ann Theolialx 12 it's Theobald, house servant born Luton

and the possibly helpful bit - someone at Ancestry has corrected the place of birth from Hamstead to Flamstead earlier this year

Fanny's dob is shown as
1821 in 1861
1817 in 1881
1829 in 1891

Moses' dob is shown as
1819 in 1861
1816 in 1881
1810 in 1891


I still can't find the 1871 household with Moses Smith and John Mills. Christina can you point the way, just out of curiosity? or I think maybe that was a typo for 1881?

I haven't yet figured out how Christina came up with the Anderson-Mills connection ... searching for Sarah by birthplace I imagine ... but it is the interesting one

and of course as Christina says it happened in her family, so when that happens one tends to be on the lookout for it happening in others

I haven't had it happen in my own tree but I've seen it occasionally

I met a person via Ancestry several years ago when I was looking for somebody and found a completely unrelated household ... I forget how it went but I think I had to investigate it to determine that it was unrelated ... and what I did figure out was that the surname given for the male head of household was not really his, it was really the surname of the woman and children just as Christina surmises here ... anyway I left a correction and someone saw it who had been searching for that family forever, and we went on to become fast email friends and help out loads with each other's trees :-)

Christina whence cometh your Hornes? we could be cousins :-)


by the way there just is no other Mills in England who was born in Wadesmill / Wades Mill except for a household later in the century in which Jessie, a Mills by marriage, her husband Walter not having been born there, appears.

so maybe Mills was Sarah's (first?) married surname


this could be her death

Deaths Jun 1888 = dob c1829
MILLS Sarah 59 Epping 4a 105

Joonie, I really can't thank you enough. Both you and Christina have given me some wonderful information to work with on a family which I thought was going to end in 1886.

I will take another look tomorrow and will order the cert on Monday. I hope I can manage to find the link :-)

from Christina's list

the Sacomb Sarah Mills in 1841 in Sacomb

John Milla 40 labourer
Maria Mills 40
William Mills 17
Sarah Mills 12
Leonard Mills 11
Henry Mills 6
Francis Mills 6
Jane Mills 4
Mills Maria 2 obviously Maria Mills and Charles Mills
Charles Maria 3 Mo


Little Mundon in 1841

William Wills 35 ag lab
Sarah Mills 35
Fanny Mells 14
Thomas Bulls 11 (the mind boggles, it is Mills)
Susan Mills 6
Sarah Mills 4
Rebecca Mills 2
Elizabeth Mills 1

This is the fellow on the memorial you saw

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_%22Gipsy%22_Smith

Rodney "Gipsy" Smith MBE (31 March 1860 – 4 August 1947) was a British evangelist who conducted evangelistic campaigns in the United States and Great Britain for over 70 years. He was an early member of the Salvation Army and a contemporary of Fanny Crosby and G. Campbell Morgan.

Smith was born in a Romani bender tent in Epping Forest, six miles northeast of London. Today the site is marked with a large, commemorative stone in the woods near Waterworks Corner, Woodford Green. Smith received no education, and his family made a living selling baskets, tinware, and clothespegs. His father, Cornelius (1831-1922), and his mother, Mary (Polly) Welch (c1831-1865), provided a home that was happy in their vardo [gypsy wagon]. Smith was a child when his mother died from smallpox near Baldock in Hertfordshire. She is buried in the nearby churchyard of St Nicholas church in Norton, now part of Letchworth Garden City. Cornelius Smith was later buried with her. The Smith children numbered four girls and two boys (Rodney was the fourth child).

Cornelius Smith was in and out of jail for various offences. There, he heard the gospel from a prison chaplain; later, he and his brothers were converted at a mission meeting. From 1873 on, "The Converted Gypsies" were involved in numerous evangelistic efforts.



interesting tidbit to tuck away

per the 1871 census Cornelius was born c1833 in Warwickshire ... someone has corrected the place name at Ancestry to Badley Wikwickel, Warwickshire

FMP results for Sarah Mills baptisms in Hertfordshire 1826-1836

1828 Hertfordshire Baptisms Sacombe, England

1830 Hertfordshire Baptisms Hunsdon, England

1834 Hertfordshire Baptisms Sandon, England

1836 Hertfordshire Baptisms Little Munden, England

EDIT - Unlikely to be Sandon as it is too far out. Hunsdon is also a bit too far but the others are close to Wadesmill

Christina, That's brilliant. I really am grateful for your help.

I looked at SEAX last week but the subscriptions are expensive and I decided to wait until I had a day off where i could just sit and do research.

Christina and Joonie, you have both been absolutely amazing. I can't believe that you chanced across my post.

I will carry on looking for anything that may be relevant and post it as I find it.

I think I might also have to order the Charles George birth cert :-)

Just seen your question Jayne. The reason I looked at your thread was because I had taken out a 24 hour subscription for the Essex records SEAX. So I had access to the parish records for Loughton.

I couldn't find any baptism records though for any of the children.

that's so interesting about the memorial Christina, and the occupations in this group of people at least certainly do suggest travellers

I've looked at familysearch for a Charles baptised in Redbourn around the right time

from 1808 to 1815, there were
Ashby born Feb 1810
Ware bapt Nov 1814
Dixon bapt 1808
Ellards bapt 1815

this is the batch covering Redbourn for the period

https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&query=+batch_number:C07277-3

there is one Mills birth, Mary Elizabeth, parents not named

in batch C07277-1 in the 1820s and 1830s there were children to a George and Rose Mills couple


but ... if we're thinking Charles Mills was not a Mills, that would be irrelevant, but he could be one of the four Charles-s baptised in Redbourn in the right period

Ashby is in the 1881 census with wife Lucy in Finchley so he is ruled out

Dixon is in the 1881 census with wife Hannah Mary in Hemel Hempstead

Ware (Warr per Ancestry) is in the 1871 census in St James Clerkenwell, a widowed horsekeeper

(not all may have survived to a census of course)

Thanks for pointing that out JoonieCloonie, it makes more sense now.

Sister Eliza Mills married (Henry) William Hockley, and on the 1901 census, she has a brother, John Mills aged 34 born Loughton with her. in 1871 he is living with his grandad, Moses Smith - who is a gypsy. They are living in Woodford.

I used to walk my dog in Woodford, and remember seeing a stone memorial in the woods there in remembrance of a gypsy with the name Smith

I am also extremely interested in the Mills/Anderson link and have seen the same as you on the census images. I am using FMP which seems to have slightly different transcriptions to Ancestry so always best to look at the images :-)

I am currently looking for possible births for Sarah Mills and Charles Anderson.

The childrens births seem to be:

Susan Ann Anderson 1860 actually Susan Ann Mills Q4 1860 Hitchin 3a 216

Charles Mills 1864 Q2 1863 Chelmsford 4a 178

Rose Mills Actually Rosetta Mills Q1 1868 Epping 4a 91

Eliza Mills (2 Eliza births in Epping)

Selina Mills Q3 1874 Epping 4a 118

my head is spinning a little but I just to put paid to Charles Francis George Anderson I think

there is only one person by that name in records but he is inconsistent with an 1862 birth/baptism

- Births Jun 1850
Anderson Charles Francis George Croydon 4 119
- Marriages Jun 1874
Anderson Charles Francis G Pancras 1b 266
- Marriages Dec 1879
Anderson Charles Francis G Strand 1b 980
- Deaths Mar 1898
Anderson Charles Francis G 47 Edmonton 3a 218


I am interested in the Mills-Anderson connection as well.

Christina's 1881 census seems a little off and seems to be a mistranscription for Charles Sr - Ancestry has them in Loughton as

Charles Mills 71 > that is, 1810 not 1837, born Redbourn
Sarah Mills 50 born Wadesmill .... etc.
Charles Mills 17
Rose Mills 13
Eliza Mills 9
Selina Mills 6

I agree that I would read the age on the image as 71 rather than 44
it is the same curvy '7' seen in Charles Jr's age 17
and a line that seems to be an ink transfer on the page has been read as the cross stroke of a 4 for the second digit when it is really a 1

this then makes him a good match for the Charles Anderson in 1861 as posted by Christina ... or well, at least a better match for Sarah by age :-)

Charles Anderson 48 - 1814 - brush maker - Norfolk
Sarah Anderson 33 - wife - hawker - Wades Mill, Herts. (note the same village)
Susan Ann Anderson - dau - 1860 - Stevenage


here is a likely death record for that Charles Mills Sr

Name: Charles Mills
Estimated birth year: abt 1810
Registration Year: 1882
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Epping
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 125


the daughter Selina from the 1881 census

Births Sep 1874
Mills Selina Epping 4a 118

it would be very interesting to know the registration details

because I agree with Christina that it's possible the Charles Sr in the Mills household was not the Mills in the crowd, and Mills was the mother and children's surname