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I feel like we're going round in circles here. This is the census for Oldfield Rd which was the first one I posted.

1911 Census transcription details for: 14 Oldfield Road Rotherhithe

National Archive Reference: RG14PN1929 RG78PN68 RD24 SD3 ED16 SN25
Reg. District: St Olave (Bermondsey)
Sub District: Rotherhithe
Parish: Bermondsey
Enum. District: 16
Address: 14 Oldfield Road Rotherhithe
County: London
Name Relation Condition/
Yrs married Sex Age Birth Year Occupation Where Born
NORMAN, Thomas Head Married
30 years M 57 1854 Dock Labourer Unemployed London Rotherhithe
NORMAN, Mary Ann Wife Married
30 years F 60 1851 London Romford Essex
QUINLAN, Ellen A Daughter Married
1 years F 26 1885 London Deptford
SAMUEL, Edward Albert Grandson M 6 1905 London Rotherhithe

The marriage of Thomas jnr has already been given to you. 7 Jan 2013 11:45 by rootgatherer.

Also the probate record for him.

Marriages Dec 1928
Barrett Esther Samuel St.Olave 1d 386
Samuel Thomas J Barrett St.Olave 1d 386

1901 census transcription details for: 27, St Helena Road, Rotherhithe
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National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 398
Folio: 131
Page: 20
Reg. District: St Olave Southwark
Sub District: Rotherhithe
Parish: Rotherhithe
Enum. District: 11
Ecclesiastical District: St Barnabas
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 27, St Helena Road, Rotherhithe
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
SAMUEL, Thomas J Head Married M 31 1870 Stevedore
Dagham, Essex
>SAMUEL, Annie L Wife Married F 29 1872
Deford, London
SAMUEL, Thomas J Son Single M 11 1890
Deford, London
SAMUEL, Joseph W Son Single M 9 1892
Rotherhithe, London
SAMUEL, Charlotte E Daughter Single F 7 1894
Rotherhithe, London
SAMUEL, Annie L Daughter Single F 5 1896
Rotherhithe, London
SAMUEL, Florence M Daughter Single F 0 (8 MOS) 1901
Rotherhithe, London


1891 census transcription details for: 6, Robinsons Place, Rotherhithe
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National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG12
Piece: 382
Folio: 144
Page: 36
Reg. District: St Olave Southwark
Sub District: Rotherhithe
Parish: Rotherhithe
Enum. District: 13
Ecclesiastical District: St Barnabas
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 6, Robinsons Place, Rotherhithe
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
SAMUELS, Thomas Head Married M 21 1870 Carman
Dagenham, Essex
>SAMUELS, Annie J Wife Married F 19 1872
Deptford, London
SAMUELS, Thomas J Son Single M 1 1890
Deptford, London





London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Thomas Samuels
Name: Thomas Samuels
Spouse Name: Anne Louisa Richardson
Record Type: Banns
Event Date: 22 Jun 1890
Parish: Deptford St Nicholas
Borough: Greenwich
Register Type: Parish Register



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921 about Annie Louisa Richardson
Name: Annie Louisa Richardson of 14 Past St
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Age: 18
Spouse Name: Thomas John Samuel, labourer of 14 Walworth Lane
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 30 Jun 1890
Parish: Walworth All Saints
Borough: Southwark
Father Name: William Richardson, carman
Spouse Father Name: Thomas Hampshire Samuel, lab (dec)
Register Type: Parish Register


Charles Buck and Florence Elizabeth Samuel were witnesses.

I'm still battling with all this. on the 1911 census for 27 St Helena Road, I can't find who was Thomas Snr's (b1869) wife was as she is not listed on this census. I would also like to findn out who Thomas Jnr (b1890) married.

Now, someone on ancestry ages ago gave me the 1911 Census for 14 Oldfield Road. I'm sure these families are linked as both addresses we have had clarified.

Dare I ask again for help on this one, please?

Nudge

PM from HLH


HELP! Again, please. I'm getting deeper into this labrynth and not crawling out - yet!

I've got a Thomas Samuel born around 1869 in Dagenham, Essex. That name went through the generations and brought us later on to a marriage of an Esther Barrett and Thomas J samuel in 1928. i just cannot find the link between someone from the Samuel family marrying into the Norman family.

Maryann Norman married Thomas Norman sometime around 1890(ish) and had a son George Norman and daughter Ellen Norman. It must be one of these two children that links the family to the Samuels.

They hailed in the South East London area.

I don't know what I'm asking, but can anyone help me further, please???


HLH

I thought that had been found.

Mary Ann Bennett first married Thomas Samuel and was widowed. She then married Thomas Norman See Aviegals post of 6 Jan 2013 21:02

So it was Mary Ann Bennett who united the the Norman and Samuel families through her second marriage on 2 Aug 1891.

Hope this helps clarify.

Mrs. Rootie

This is Thomas on Ancestry.


1901 England Census about Thomas Norman
Name: Thomas Norman
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A Norman
Gender: Male
Where born: Rotherhithe, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Rotherhithe
Ecclesiastical parish: St Barnabas
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: Rotherhithe
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 603
Piece: 398
Folio: 131
Page Number: 20
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Norman 45
Mary A Norman 49
George Norman 18
Ellen A Norman 16
Charlotte Samuels 22


There is also this one married to an Annie. Is this why you are getting confused?


1901 England Census about Thomas Norman
Name: Thomas Norman
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Annie Norman
Gender: Male
Where born: Acton, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Acton
Ecclesiastical parish: East Acton St Dunstan
Town: Acton
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Brentford
Sub-registration district: Acton
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 198
Piece: 1201
Folio: 81
Page Number: 35
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Norman 41
Annie Norman 40
Thomas Norman 19
Annie Norman 19
William Norman 15
George Norman 13
James Norman 9



I don't know what site you are doing your research on but the census record can be found on this link.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X9CW-FZK

Alviegal: I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I cannot find Thomas Norman of 27 St Helena Road rotherhithe on the 1901 Census as you have found me above. I just need to clarify things as we have his wife's name of Annie L but on other places it appears to be MaryAnn.

Help!

HLH

Do you think that wasn't the correct Esther that I found please?

Here it is on ancestry. The 1881 is free to access online.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XQ42-N32 is the familysearch link to it.


1881 England Census about Thomas Samuell
Name: Thomas Samuell
Age: 56
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Maryann Samuell
Gender: Male
Where born: Bromley, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Deptford St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 9 Reculver Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status:

View image
Occupation: Labourer

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: St Paul Deptford
ED, institution, or vessel: 31
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 707
Folio: 106
Page Number: 31
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Samuell 56
Maryann Samuell 30
Thomas Samuell 12
Florence Samuell 9
Maryann Samuell 4
Joseph Samuell 7
Charlotte Samuell 3


and the marriage. http://www.freebmd.org.uk

Marriages Sep 1868 (>99%)
Bennett Mary Ann W. Ham 4a 41 Scan available - click to view
Cottrall William Gale W Ham 4a 41 Scan available - click to view
Samuell Thomas Hampsher West Ham 4a 41 Scan available - click to view
Sivell Mary Ann West Ham 4a 41

Alviegal please help!!

I'm looking at the 1881 census records for the info re Thomas samuel living at 9 Reculver Road, St Paul, Deptford. I cannot understand how I cannot find the census record myself.

Also, the marriage in 1868 between Thomas Samuel and Mary Ann Bennett, I have tried searching in the marriage records on teh GR site, but cannot find that either. A bad day or what!!!!

HLH

I was suggesting that that may have been the marriage of your Esther's parents. I had sent a PM with the possible children of that marriage. I see that you haven't as yet read the message so have a look in your inbox.

The child of the above marriage seems to have married a John Norris.


The person that I am suggesting that is your Esther is the Great Granddaughter of Mary Samuel through her son Thomas John (1869 - 1928) and his son Thomas John (1891 - 1962).

Rootgathered - thanks for all that. It looks like the Mary Norman is the right one, we didn't know she had been married before (Samuel).

re the Esther: our Esther is, according to one of our relatives, apparently still living. Don't think its the marriage in 1928 you mentioned though, as she must be aged about late 80's, or early 90's I guess and this marriage took place 85 years ago. Think she married someone called Norris surname (unless she has married previously).

Name: Thomas J Samuel
Birth Date: abt 1869
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1928
Age at Death: 59
Registration district: St Olave
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 143


Name: Thomas John Samuel
Probate Date: 19 Jul 1928
Death Date: 1 Jun 1928
Death Place: Surrey, England
Registry: London, England

Thomas John Samuel of 27 Helena Road Rotherhithe administration to Charlotte Ann Samuel, spinster. Effects £48. 6s. 10d.


Name: Thomas J Samuel
Birth Date: abt 1891
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1962
Age at Death: 71
Registration district: Bermondsey
Inferred County: London
Volume: 5c
Page: 188


Name: Thomas John Samuel
Probate Date: 5 Mar 1962
Death Date: 14 Jan 1962
Death Place: London, England
Registry: London, England

Thomas John Samuel of 27 St. Helena Road, Rotherhithe, London S.E. 16. Administration to Esther Samuel widow. Effects £126. 11s.

Will PM births from the marriage below as the people are probably still living.


Marriages Dec 1928
Barrett Esther Samuel St.Olave 1d 386
Samuel Thomas J Barrett St.Olave 1d 386


1911

Name: Thomas John Samuel
Age in 1911: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation to Head: Son
Gender: Male
Birth Place: DEPTFORD, England
Civil parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England
Street Address: 27 St Helena Road, Rotherhithe S E
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: SHEET IRON WORKER
Registration district: St Olave (Bermondsey)
Registration District Number: 24
Sub-registration district: Rotherhithe
ED, institution, or vessel: 16
Piece: 1929
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas John Samuel 41
Thomas John Samuel 21
Joseph William Samuel 19
Charlottie Ann Samuel 17
Annie Louise Samuel 15
Florence Mary Ann Samuel 10


The Thomas John Samuel aged 41 years in the above 1911 census is the son Thomas (of Thomas and Mary Ann) in the 1881 census posted above by "Alviegal"

Could Esther be the daughter of Edward Albert's brother Stanley?

Name: Stanley George Samuel
Birth Date: 18 Apr 1929
Date of Registration: Nov 2005
Age at Death: 76
Registration district: Epping Forest
Inferred County: Essex
Register Number: 51C
District and Subdistrict: 470/1
Entry number: 6

Alviegal = thanks so much for all that. think its all coming together now where the Samuel family fits in with the Normans.

the only query is the Albert Edward Samuel (or Edward Albert as he was known by mymother-in-law). He is listed on the Alamein Memoiral as the latter name, but guess he could have switched his names around accordingly.

:-D

Sounds like they're the same family - but with an 's' on the end of the surname.

1901 census transcription details for: 27, St Helena Road, Rotherhithe
Print Close

National Archive Reference:
RG number: RG13
Piece: 398
Folio: 131
Page: 20
Reg. District: St Olave Southwark
Sub District: Rotherhithe
Parish: Rotherhithe
Enum. District: 11
Ecclesiastical District: St Barnabas
City/Municipal Borough:
Address: 27, St Helena Road, Rotherhithe
County: London
Name Relation Condition Sex Age Birth Year Occupation , Disability Where Born
NORMANS, Thomas Head Married M 45 1856 Deal Porter
Rotherhithe, Surrey
NORMANS, Mary A Wife Married F 49 1852
N K, Essex
NORMANS, George Son Single M 18 1883 Deal Porter
Rotherhithe, Surrey
NORMANS, Ellen A Daughter Single F 16 1885 Cap Maker
Rotherhithe, Surrey
SAMUELS, Charlotte Step Daughter Single F 22 1879 Biscuit Packer
Deptford, Kent

I think Thomas Hampsher (Hampshire?) Samuel married Mary Ann Bennett. They had children Thomas, Florence, Joseph and Charlotte.

When he died, Mary Ann married Thomas Norman and had George and Ellen A.

Edward Albert, 1905, is their grandson but not sure about his parents.

He married Hilda Woods in 1922 and Albert who died in WW2 was possibly born in 1924.

If you purcase the MC, the name of Edward A's father should be on it.


I know it is confusing to see all the names and records but this is the gist of it.