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So, the family must have gone down to Gloucester and left the older ones in Sunderland then? as Harriett was born down there. My earlier comment of WAB's 3rd marriage was incorrect. It was actually 1916 - to Sarah Batt widow of Walter Batt nee Cook.

Divorces were expensive for the working classes. He only got the 1st on the grounds of her bigamy.

Whatever happened it seems likely that there were no children of Harriett's marriage to WAB.

The question of the other William Alexander Bass's marriage in 1919 to Beatrice Rumfitt remains. The man he describes on the marriage cert as his father "Henry Frederick Bass" deceased just does not make sense as that man had a son named William Charles Bass and he would not have had two sons with the name William (3 years apart) - unless the first William died in childhood?
Enough to give you nightmares. Thanks for all your help in this. At least we now have a better picture of Harriett and her family. You are probably correct and she moved in with some chap and took his name and then had her death registered in that name. Nobody to argue - No computers! Same as my other mystery lady Mary Ann Bass nee Connor.

Night night
jennifer

I've checked both Ancestry and the National Archives and the only divorce I can find for WAB is the 1895.

Harriett may have lived with someone and just taken their name so don't know what the chances are of finding her. Have checked newspaper archives - nothing.

Will have a poke around ..

Family mis-transcribed in 1861 but definitely Herbert on image. So elizabeth Jane definitely did belong with the family

HARBERT, William Head Married M 35 1826 Block & Mast Maker Sunderland, Durham
HARBERT, Elizabeth Wife Married F 33 1828 Bishopwearmouth, Durham
HARBERT, Thomas Son Unmarried M 9 1852 Scholar Bishopwearmouth, Durham
HARBERT, Mary Ann Daughter Unmarried F 7 1854 Scholar Deptford, Durham
HARBERT, Elizabeth Jane Daughter Unmarried F 5 1856 Scholar Deptford, Durham
HARBERT, William Son Unmarried M 3 1858 Deptford, Durham
HARBERT, Margaret Daughter Unmarried F 1 (19M) 1860 Deptford, Durham
HARBERT, Isabella Daughter Unmarried F 0 (2M) 1861 Deptford, Durham

Piece: 3768 Folio: 46 Page: 22
Registration District: Sunderland
Civil Parish: Bishopwearmouth
Municipal Borough: Sunderland

Address: Walker Street, Bishopwearmouth, Sunderland County: Durham

Hello again. On the 1911 census William Alexander Bass describes himself as single. Is there any way we could find a divorce for him? Maybe he knew she was dead? If she re-married between 1901 and 1911 then any subsequent death before he married yet again in 1921 would have been in a new name. If she did not remarry or die then he was a bigamist!!!

I don't know what Kaye Kilpatrick meant saying that I am the daughter of Berry Isabel Money. No way Jose. I am granddaughter of Emma Georgina Bass who was Wm A's sister. (Got away cheaply at the dentist - £18!)

regards

jennifer

Hi Jennifer
I am sorry but cannot give you any info on Harriett Herbert following the line of a grand uncle, as for contact with living descendants on that line I have a 1st cousin 1x removed but she knows nothing about the family, wish I could help you more. just to let you know how I fit in
Harriet Herbert (1874 - )
sister-in-law of uncle of wife of grand uncle
William Herbert (1826 - )
father of Harriet Herbert
Barbara Herbert (1868 - 1953)
daughter of William Herbert
William James Cone (1864 - 1903)
husband of Barbara Herbert
Charles Cone (1825 - )
father of William James Cone
Charles Henry Cone (1860 - 1909)
son of Charles Cone
Clara May Cone (1893 - 1974)
daughter of Charles Henry Cone
George William Money (1892 - 1966)
husband of Clara May Cone
George John Money (1870 - 1937)
father of George William Money
Charles Frederick Money (1893 - 1959)
son of George John Money
Betty Isabel Money (1922 - 2009)
daughter of Charles Frederick Money
Kaye Joy Kilpatrick
You are the daughter of Betty Isabel Money
Good luck with your search
Cheers
Kaye Kilpatrick

The 1911 shows that Mary Ann Herbert is still with her sister but Harriett is gone, so did she remain in the Sunderland area?

TAYLOR, Isaac Hudson Head Married M 56 1855 Coal Trimmer Sunderland Monkwearmouth
TAYLOR, Elizabeth Jane Wife Married 13 years F 55 1856 Durham Sunderland
TAYLOR, John Taylor Son Single M 22 1889 Hand Driller Durham Sunderland
TAYLOR, Albert Edward Hudson Son Single M 20 1891 Hand Driller Durham Sunderland
TAYLOR, David Scott Son Single M 14 1897 Durham Sunderland
HERBERT, Mary Ann Sister In Law Single F 57 1854

RG number: RG14 Piece: 30172
Reference: RG14PN30172 RG78PN1740 RD555 SD1 ED29 SN302
Registration District: Sunderland
Sub District: Sunderland West
Enumeration District: 29
Parish: Sunderland

Address: 12 Close St Sunderland County: Durham

Seems likely this is the first marriage for Elizabeth:

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1882
CARR Sarah Sunderland 10a 859
HERBERT Elizabeth Jane Sunderland 10a 859 <<<
Self John Edward Sunderland 10a 859
Spark James Sunderland 10a 859 <<<

Hi Jennifer, no - I went to bed at a sensible time!

Can you copy and paste the text from that message?

Just working on some background to Harriett's family to see if we can get any clues to finding her.

This is the 1891 for that previously unfound sister Elizabeth:

SPARK, William H Head Married M 65 1826 Block & Mast Maker Sunderland, County Durham
SPARK, Elizabeth J Daughter Widow F 35 1856 Sunderland, County Durham
SPARK, Dora Granddaughter F 2 1889 Sunderland, County Durham

Piece: 4131 Folio: 53 Page: 30
Registration District: Sunderland
Civil Parish: Bishop Wearmouth
Municipal Borough: Sunderland

Address: 24, Potts Street, Bishop Wearmouth, Sunderland County: Durham

The actual image says Elizabeth is daughter-in-law.

Hello Marie, Hope you were not up half the night with these dead people! Thanks for the further input. I found Harriett on Ancestry on a Public Members tree - KKilpatrick4609. The elder sister of Harriettt - Barbara Herbert married a Wm J Cone so I know it is right. Just had a message to say she knows nothing of that branch of the family. On her tree I can't see a sister Elizabeth so you maybe know more than she does. (or he).
The marriage of William ALexander Bass and Harriett Herbert took place at Hackney Registry Office on 29 October 1898. He described as 33 years old and a Carman of 89 Bouverie Road, Stoke Newington - son of George Bass an agricultural labourer.
Harriet - 25 years old spinster of 132 Shacklewell Lane, daughter of WIlliam Herbert deceased a ship's carpenter. Witnessed top line - BN Bradford, bottom line Mrs B Cone & W.J.Cone - (Harriett's sister Barbara and her husband)
I've not worked out how I can copy over to you the reply I got from the Ancestry Kilpatrick person. Thanks for your help. Have a good week. I'm off to the dentist now!
Regards, Jennifer

Hi Jennifer, I remember this one well!

I have work tomorrow so off to bed but meanwhile could you give the details of what it says for WAB on the 1898 marriage?

Have just had a quick skim of his divorce papers on Ancestry which confirms he had no children with Emily/Emma.

Just found Harriet in 1901, looks like she also had a sister Elizabeth born c1857

TAYLOR, Issac H Head Married M 45 1856 Trimmer Sunderland, Durham
TAYLOR, Elizabeth J Wife Married F 44 1857 Sunderland, Durham
TAYLOR, Issac H Son Single M 17 1884 Apprentice For Blacksmith Sunderland, Durham
TAYLOR, William B Son Single M 15 1886 Apprentice For Carpenter Sunderland, Durham
TAYLOR, John B Son Single M 12 1889 Sunderland, Durham
TAYLOR, Alfred H Son Single M 10 1891 Sunderland, Durham
TAYLOR, David B Son Single M 4 1897 Sunderland, Durham
SPARK, Dora Daughter Single F 12 1889 Sunderland, Durham
HERBERT, Mary A Sister Single F 47 1854 Sunderland, Durham
BASS, Harriet Sister Married F 27 1874 Gloucester

Piece: 4710 Folio: 50 Page: 9
Registration District: Sunderland
Civil Parish: Sunderland

Address: 14, Ropery Road, Sunderland County: Durham

(I know Ropery Road!!)

EDIT:
Mary Ann is still with the Taylors in 1911 but no sign of Harriet.

This is the marriage of Isaac and Elizabeth so it looks like she's been wed previously:

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index, 1837-1915

Name: Isaac Taylor
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1898
Registration District: Sunderland
Inferred County: Durham
Volume Number: 10a
Page Number: 1043

Records on Page:
Name
Joseph Mills
Elizabeth Jane Spark <<
Isaac Taylor <<
Mary Webster

Hello again Marie, Since our last exchange I have discovered that the said Harriett Herbert, 2nd wife of William Alexander Bass, was born in Gloucester to parents William and Elizabeth Herbert. William Herbert was a ship's carpenter. She was the youngest child and had siblings Thomas Herbert 1852, Mary A Herbert 1854, Margaret Herbert 1860, Isabella Herbert 1861, Julia Herbert 1865, Barbara Herbert 1868-1953 and lastly Harriett 1874. Barbara Herbert married a William J Cone and this couple were the witnesses at the marriage of Wm Alexander Bass and Harriett Herbert in 1898. I can still find no trace of Harriett - ie any children born to the marriage - not can I find a death registration. Any such information could unlock the whole mystery for me. Hope you don't mind me taking up some more of your time. Kind regards and thanks, Jennifer

That sounds like a plausible theory Jennifer, the timing fits.

Marie, I have had further thoughts on this matter and, after reading the newspaper article about his first wife Emma Simpson committing bigamy, I am wondering if he and his second wife Harriet Herbert actually produced a son and named him after daddy. I think the dates could fit. When WIlliam came out of the army he maybe took up with Harriet Herbert but they could not tie the knot until he traced where wife no.1 was living. What do you think? Thanks for all your help so far. It is great to have someone to bounce ideas off! regards, Jennifer

Thanks Marie, I am hoping that someone can prove that it is not the same man - but the surname is too common.
Sleep well, regards, Jennifer

Thanks Marie, I am hoping that someone can prove that it is not the same man - but the surname is too common.
Sleep well, regards, Jennifer

Jennifer, I'm not convinced that they are the same chap - too many variables.

Going now, but will have another look tomorrow.

Thanks Marie. I'm afraid I don't know much on Harriet nee Herbert apart from the marriage cert. Hackney Registry Office - 29 Oct 1898. Harriet Herbert aged 25yrs spinster. 132 Shacklewell Lane, daughter of William Herbert deceased a ship's carpenter. Witnesses - B N?Bradford and W J Cone and B Cone (both Cones on the bottom line so look like a married couple (she had crossed out "Mrs" which had been in front of B Cone)

The point is still that Beatrice married a William Alexander Bass. Maybe he dropped the Alexander bit? Did WAB and Beatrice have sons and one called William and WAB fled to Sarah and left her with the kids. WAB could not be at more than one place at a time - OR COULD HE? Maybe I'll try and look for a second WAB death?

We're obviously looking in the same places Jennifer!

What else do you know about Harriet Herbert? When/where born, etc.

I'll see if I can dig anything up on her.

Yes Marie. Could well be him. His wife Sarah died in 1934. So he was alone. He visited my Gran now and then but the WW2 interrupted most of that. I have looked on the voters lists for 1930 and see a Beatrice Bass living at 59 Pole St Stepney with a William Bass, Sophia Rumfitt (Beatrice's mother) and Alfred & Florence Bartram - relatives of his brother's daughter Lydia. That William may be a son of theirs or maybe he was left on their polling list?

By 1950 Beatrice and a William are at 89 Gold St Stepney with a Frederick W and a Ronald Bass. I found a marriage for Frederick W to a Marie A Cardy. However I am not doing anything else until I rule out whether we have the real McCoy so to speak.